Time for a tactical rethink ?

ionman34 wrote:
I can see where you are coming from Arnie but, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't we have enough clear cut chances to win three games?

Okay, we had 3 put past us but you can't legislate for individual error, particularly when there was no pressure.

I really don't see anything wrong with the tactics, put just 20% of those chances away and we have hammered them, the game isn't being chased and, likely, they'd have only got the two gifted to them.

We were chasing the game from early on when, had we put away even a modest quota, it would have been Blackpool chasing, then we'd be debating the Cricket scoreline as few, if any, can counterattack as well as us.

BazSpur wrote:I make you right Arnie and to be honest I was surprised he didn't go with Palacious and Sandro in CM again. Wolves will be tough but let's hope we have learned something from Blackpool. We can still get 4th place it's just going to be that little bit tougher now.

Im not giving up on CL qualification Baz ... Afterall , this is Spurs , we like to do things the hard way and put the fans through the rinser

ArnieArdiles wrote:

ionman34 wrote:
I can see where you are coming from Arnie but, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't we have enough clear cut chances to win three games?

Okay, we had 3 put past us but you can't legislate for individual error, particularly when there was no pressure.

I really don't see anything wrong with the tactics, put just 20% of those chances away and we have hammered them, the game isn't being chased and, likely, they'd have only got the two gifted to them.

We were chasing the game from early on when, had we put away even a modest quota, it would have been Blackpool chasing, then we'd be debating the Cricket scoreline as few, if any, can counterattack as well as us.

Ion, many of the Spurs faithfull were predicting we would hammer Blackpool just like the Spammers did recently with Keano scoring too and Harry says he's suprised at our wastefullness .... Well Im not suprised we didnt thrash them nor Im I suprised we wasted all those goal scoring opportunities .. Surely, from the evidence we've seen this season, we've at least learnt that we dont score plenty of goals, even more so, without our two top goalscorers VDV and Bale in the starting line-up?

Our best away performances have been the backs to the wall games... Villa away, down to 10 players after Defoe's early sending off... Recently at Blackburn , Sunderland and Milan ...Forced changes due to absentees meant we altered our mindset to a more defensive game.. We went into these games to keep it tight , stop the opposition from playing their game and then hit them on the break when the opportunities arose ...At Blackpool we were set up to go for their jugular from the off , dish out a thrashing , then make our way merrily home ...
I wanted to see us from the off, all over the Blackpool players stopping them playing their game , rough them up (within the rules) so to speak ... But instead we had both Wilson and Modric bombing forward in the first half looking to create, when one ( mainly Wilson ) should've been holding back ...We then get to see situations where that when we loose the ball on the edge of our opponents penalty box, our opponents just have to ping a diagonal ball over the heads of our midfield into our fall-back areas like, Adam was doing and then get to seethe ball in our penalty area within one or two passes more ..It's all to easy ..
Modric is confident with a defensive minded Huddlestone behind him and with VDV further ahead as both these players will recieve a pass and then make a pass .. Yesterday , Modric had Wilson sometimes behind him and Defoe and Pav ahead of him and its just not the same ....

djfitzo wrote:

ArnieArdiles wrote:

ionman34 wrote:
I can see where you are coming from Arnie but, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't we have enough clear cut chances to win three games?

Okay, we had 3 put past us but you can't legislate for individual error, particularly when there was no pressure.

I really don't see anything wrong with the tactics, put just 20% of those chances away and we have hammered them, the game isn't being chased and, likely, they'd have only got the two gifted to them.

We were chasing the game from early on when, had we put away even a modest quota, it would have been Blackpool chasing, then we'd be debating the Cricket scoreline as few, if any, can counterattack as well as us.

Ion, many of the Spurs faithfull were predicting we would hammer Blackpool just like the Spammers did recently with Keano scoring too and Harry says he's suprised at our wastefullness .... Well Im not suprised we didnt thrash them nor Im I suprised we wasted all those goal scoring opportunities .. Surely, from the evidence we've seen this season, we've at least learnt that we dont score plenty of goals, even more so, without our two top goalscorers VDV and Bale in the starting line-up?

Our best away performances have been the backs to the wall games... Villa away, down to 10 players after Defoe's early sending off... Recently at Blackburn , Sunderland and Milan ...Forced changes due to absentees meant we altered our mindset to a more defensive game.. We went into these games to keep it tight , stop the opposition from playing their game and then hit them on the break when the opportunities arose ...At Blackpool we were set up to go for their jugular from the off , dish out a thrashing , then make our way merrily home ...
I wanted to see us from the off, all over the Blackpool players stopping them playing their game , rough them up (within the rules) so to speak ... But instead we had both Wilson and Modric bombing forward in the first half looking to create, when one ( mainly Wilson ) should've been holding back ...We then get to see situations where that when we loose the ball on the edge of our opponents penalty box, our opponents just have to ping a diagonal ball over the heads of our midfield into our fall-back areas like, Adam was doing and then get to seethe ball in our penalty area within one or two passes more ..It's all to easy ..
Modric is confident with a defensive minded Huddlestone behind him and with VDV further ahead as both these players will recieve a pass and then make a pass .. Yesterday , Modric had Wilson sometimes behind him and Defoe and Pav ahead of him and its just not the same ....

Also Arnie, for the first time this season Holloway showed a team respect and didnt go gung ho like they normally do, so tactically he got it right by sitting 11 men behind the ball, which is normally alien to the way they play.

VisionarySound wrote:Classic counter attack football. They get the early pen then defend in depth and punish us on the break. 25 attempts, 10 on target. According to 'arry 8 open goals (tho' I don't recall that many lol). 2 Defoe chances off the line. Last night we couldn't buy a goal until Pavy hit too late to matter. Why it went like that I don't know. I saw a team dominate the 2nd half and still concede a 3rd. I saw a team give the 2nd goal away at the worse possible time. Last night almost defies logic & explanation. Do we put it down to poor finishing from the strikers ? Bad defending when better was required ? Lack of cutting edge from the midfield ? Maybe all of these and then some . . . .

VisionarySound wrote:You made the point Arnie about Adams & Thudd and the time Adams had. This gives weight indeed to your 2 holding players but would mean a return to 4-5-1. Sandra, Palicious, Moddle or VDV, Lennon & Bale. I just feel that with 2 holders in a 4-4-2 we would lose balance out wide or the guile of Moddle, thrust of VDV through the middle . . . . .

ArnieArdiles wrote:

VisionarySound wrote:You made the point Arnie about Adams & Thudd and the time Adams had. This gives weight indeed to your 2 holding players but would mean a return to 4-5-1. Sandra, Palicious, Moddle or VDV, Lennon & Bale. I just feel that with 2 holders in a 4-4-2 we would lose balance out wide or the guile of Moddle, thrust of VDV through the middle . . . . .

4-5-1 can also be a 4-3-3 Vis . Its 4-5-1 when we've not got the ball and 4-3-3 for fast counter attacking ... Sandro protecting the backline , with Wilson hassling Adams and Modders looking to create with three ahead of him....
Lennon in a three up top doesnt have to be a strict winger , I'd like to see him more in a free role ...



I suppose whatever way we look at it, we would think we should have enough to beat Blackpool but football is never like that . Despite our many comebacks this season , football games are more often won by the team that scores the first goal and thats why I'd just like to see us tighten up our game like we had been recently...
The return game at the Lane will be intresting where I expect Blackpool to employ similar tactics ...

ArnieArdiles wrote:

VisionarySound wrote:You made the point Arnie about Adams & Thudd and the time Adams had. This gives weight indeed to your 2 holding players but would mean a return to 4-5-1. Sandra, Palicious, Moddle or VDV, Lennon & Bale. I just feel that with 2 holders in a 4-4-2 we would lose balance out wide or the guile of Moddle, thrust of VDV through the middle . . . . .

4-5-1 can also be a 4-3-3 Vis . Its 4-5-1 when we've not got the ball and 4-3-3 for fast counter attacking ... Sandro protecting the backline , with Wilson hassling Adams and Modders looking to create with three ahead of him....
Lennon in a three up top doesnt have to be a strict winger , I'd like to see him more in a free role ...



I suppose whatever way we look at it, we would think we should have enough to beat Blackpool but football is never like that . Despite our many comebacks this season , football games are more often won by the team that scores the first goal and thats why I'd just like to see us tighten up our game like we had been recently...
The return game at the Lane will be intresting where I expect Blackpool to employ similar tactics ...

ionman34 wrote:
I can see where you are coming from Arnie but, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't we have enough clear cut chances to win three games?

Okay, we had 3 put past us but you can't legislate for individual error, particularly when there was no pressure.

I really don't see anything wrong with the tactics, put just 20% of those chances away and we have hammered them, the game isn't being chased and, likely, they'd have only got the two gifted to them.

We were chasing the game from early on when, had we put away even a modest quota, it would have been Blackpool chasing, then we'd be debating the Cricket scoreline as few, if any, can counterattack as well as us.

ArnieArdiles wrote:

ionman34 wrote:
I can see where you are coming from Arnie but, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't we have enough clear cut chances to win three games?

Okay, we had 3 put past us but you can't legislate for individual error, particularly when there was no pressure.

I really don't see anything wrong with the tactics, put just 20% of those chances away and we have hammered them, the game isn't being chased and, likely, they'd have only got the two gifted to them.

We were chasing the game from early on when, had we put away even a modest quota, it would have been Blackpool chasing, then we'd be debating the Cricket scoreline as few, if any, can counterattack as well as us.

[color=#000080]
Ion, many of the Spurs faithfull were predicting we would hammer Blackpool just like the Spammers did recently with Keano scoring too and Harry says he's suprised at our wastefullness .... Well Im not suprised we didnt thrash them nor Im I suprised we wasted all those goal scoring opportunities .. Surely, from the evidence we've seen this season, we've at least learnt that we dont score plenty of goals, even more so, without our two top goalscorers VDV and Bale in the starting line-up?

[b]I still fail to see what relevance this has to the tactics mate. You don't win games defensively, you need to attack. Redknapps tactics put scoring chance after scoring chance in front of our strikers and they fluffed their lines.

The tactics didn't fail, the strikers did. That's over 40 million pounds worth of striking talent Arnie, you can't have them on the pitch and not set your team up to utilise them, regardless of their lack of goals. In order to get misfiring strikers out of their funk you need to give them opportunities and they had them in spades.


Our best away performances have been the backs to the wall games... Villa away, down to 10 players after Defoe's early sending off... Recently at Blackburn , Sunderland and Milan ...Forced changes due to absentees meant we altered our mindset to a more defensive game.. We went into these games to keep it tight , stop the opposition from playing their game and then hit them on the break when the opportunities arose ...At Blackpool we were set up to go for their jugular from the off , dish out a thrashing , then make our way merrily home ...

Which, apart from some of the most profligate finishing seen for donkeys years, is exactly what would have happened. Mate, they had 4-5 chances in the entire game, at home, and converted 3 of them. That's a 60 to 75% conversion rate which is phenomenal. Imagine the scoreline had we converted to that ratio.

I wanted to see us from the off, all over the Blackpool players stopping them playing their game , rough them up (within the rules) so to speak ... But instead we had both Wilson and Modric bombing forward in the first half looking to create, when one ( mainly Wilson ) should've been holding back ...We then get to see situations where that when we loose the ball on the edge of our opponents penalty box, our opponents just have to ping a diagonal ball over the heads of our midfield into our fall-back areas like, Adam was doing and then get to seethe ball in our penalty area within one or two passes more ..It's all to easy ..

You make it sound as though they were picking us off at will. That happened on the odd occasion, which is fairly normal for any game, but for the majority we had possession and were creating chances for fun.
The tactics, as far as I am concerned, were sound for playing at Blackpool and on any other day we would have handed them their ass on a platter. The personnel failed and let down Harry, not his tactics.

Modric is confident with a defensive minded Huddlestone behind him and with VDV further ahead as both these players will recieve a pass and then make a pass .. Yesterday , Modric had Wilson sometimes behind him and Defoe and Pav ahead of him and its just not the same ....

It may not be the same mate but that doesn't mean the tactics are not effective. The quantity of opportunities and the volume of possession bear this out. I'll concede that, in hindsight, Palacios could have been reined in more to protect the back four, but then again, the back four were under very little pressure, they just dropped clangers. All of which, once again, should have made little difference if we had just converted, say, 1 in 4 of our chances, then we'd have been out of sight.

Like I said Arnie, I see where you're coming from, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I can't really see how we can fault tactics that create enough chances to bury 3 teams in a row, but that are let down by the personnel entrusted to deliver on those tactics.

ArnieArdiles wrote:

ionman34 wrote:
I can see where you are coming from Arnie but, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't we have enough clear cut chances to win three games?

Okay, we had 3 put past us but you can't legislate for individual error, particularly when there was no pressure.

I really don't see anything wrong with the tactics, put just 20% of those chances away and we have hammered them, the game isn't being chased and, likely, they'd have only got the two gifted to them.

We were chasing the game from early on when, had we put away even a modest quota, it would have been Blackpool chasing, then we'd be debating the Cricket scoreline as few, if any, can counterattack as well as us.

[color=#000080]
Ion, many of the Spurs faithfull were predicting we would hammer Blackpool just like the Spammers did recently with Keano scoring too and Harry says he's suprised at our wastefullness .... Well Im not suprised we didnt thrash them nor Im I suprised we wasted all those goal scoring opportunities .. Surely, from the evidence we've seen this season, we've at least learnt that we dont score plenty of goals, even more so, without our two top goalscorers VDV and Bale in the starting line-up?

[b]I still fail to see what relevance this has to the tactics mate. You don't win games defensively, you need to attack. Redknapps tactics put scoring chance after scoring chance in front of our strikers and they fluffed their lines.

The tactics didn't fail, the strikers did. That's over 40 million pounds worth of striking talent Arnie, you can't have them on the pitch and not set your team up to utilise them, regardless of their lack of goals. In order to get misfiring strikers out of their funk you need to give them opportunities and they had them in spades.


Our best away performances have been the backs to the wall games... Villa away, down to 10 players after Defoe's early sending off... Recently at Blackburn , Sunderland and Milan ...Forced changes due to absentees meant we altered our mindset to a more defensive game.. We went into these games to keep it tight , stop the opposition from playing their game and then hit them on the break when the opportunities arose ...At Blackpool we were set up to go for their jugular from the off , dish out a thrashing , then make our way merrily home ...

Which, apart from some of the most profligate finishing seen for donkeys years, is exactly what would have happened. Mate, they had 4-5 chances in the entire game, at home, and converted 3 of them. That's a 60 to 75% conversion rate which is phenomenal. Imagine the scoreline had we converted to that ratio.

I wanted to see us from the off, all over the Blackpool players stopping them playing their game , rough them up (within the rules) so to speak ... But instead we had both Wilson and Modric bombing forward in the first half looking to create, when one ( mainly Wilson ) should've been holding back ...We then get to see situations where that when we loose the ball on the edge of our opponents penalty box, our opponents just have to ping a diagonal ball over the heads of our midfield into our fall-back areas like, Adam was doing and then get to seethe ball in our penalty area within one or two passes more ..It's all to easy ..

You make it sound as though they were picking us off at will. That happened on the odd occasion, which is fairly normal for any game, but for the majority we had possession and were creating chances for fun.
The tactics, as far as I am concerned, were sound for playing at Blackpool and on any other day we would have handed them their ass on a platter. The personnel failed and let down Harry, not his tactics.

Modric is confident with a defensive minded Huddlestone behind him and with VDV further ahead as both these players will recieve a pass and then make a pass .. Yesterday , Modric had Wilson sometimes behind him and Defoe and Pav ahead of him and its just not the same ....

It may not be the same mate but that doesn't mean the tactics are not effective. The quantity of opportunities and the volume of possession bear this out. I'll concede that, in hindsight, Palacios could have been reined in more to protect the back four, but then again, the back four were under very little pressure, they just dropped clangers. All of which, once again, should have made little difference if we had just converted, say, 1 in 4 of our chances, then we'd have been out of sight.

Like I said Arnie, I see where you're coming from, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I can't really see how we can fault tactics that create enough chances to bury 3 teams in a row, but that are let down by the personnel entrusted to deliver on those tactics.

cynicsid wrote:

Gomes

Hutton Dawson Gallas Ekotto
Thudd
Lennon Modric Bale
VDV Kranjca

I'D LOVE TO GIVE THIS A GO AGAINST THE CLUBS IN THE LOWER PART OF THE LEAGUE..