Breaking News.on the OS.

Boltjean wrote:I was just going to post about this Baz. The Judges task was just to decide whether Spurs had an arguable case. A further hearing with full arguments from all sides will now have to be held. I just wish Levy would let this drop, what the hell is he doing. In all honesty it does not matter to me if we get the Olympic Stadium or not, it's how we perform on the pitch that is far more important to me. People say the Olympic Stadium means more people at games, more money coming in therefore more to spend on players, imo all this could be achieved by making our present stadium bigger. In the light of the present riots, I suppose it might be a good thing to move, but then again did'nt Levy say that he will do all he can for the area, I can not see how by moving away is going to be beneficial to Tottenham. Sadly, Bill Nicholson's final resting place was along side the pitch when his ashes were scattered there, I would hate to see his last resting place desecrated by a block of flats or a Tescos.

ArnieArdiles wrote:Ion, its not about believing the utterances of the East End Spammers on their official site... I wrote in my post that I'm sure theres been some wrong doings by all the parties envolved..

How are you so sure? According to the facts immediately at hand, Spurs have done nothing wrong, neither have Spam. However, it appears, from advice given by legal counsel, that WH and Newham may have proceeded in an illegal manner regarding the loan of 40 million pounds. Hence us asking for a judicial review. Wh have 'claimed' that our PI has acted in an illegal manner. This remains to be proven. Personally I am highly doubtful. Be that as it may, it is irrelevant. We have employed a PI to investigate, how that entity investigates is up to them. Do you honestly think that DL has instructed them in how to do their job?

Be serious.

Spurs have taken the moral high ground and, in order to maintain that, have acted appropriately in every way. Those are the facts currently at hand. To suggest otherwise is to buy into the WH unsubstantiated spin and believe the worst of the THFC board. I question any Spurs 'fan' who does that when all other evidence points elsewhere.


Forget all that shareholder nonsense because we're a PLC ... We're owned by Enic with their 85% holding , who in turn are owned by Joe Lewis's Tavistock Group who's global investments exceed a billion dollars...

Don't be ridiculous. As a PLC we are owned by shareholders. Whether those shareholders number 10 or a thousand is irrelevant, the Chairman still has an obligation to them.


Never mind the fact that this investment company was willing to uproot us to the London Borough of Newham ffs lol but its all now about penny pinching, 10 years on from when the NLD project should really have been set in motion...

10 years ago the NPD WAS set in motion. Over that time, THFC have systematically purchased holdings all around the stadium proper. In many cases the negotiations for the land have taken a long period of time due to the reluctance of tenants/owners to sell. Unlike the Government, we cannot carry out compulsory purchase.
Then the concept and design stage has been undertaken. To do this a myriad of information is required just to decide the shape and orientation of the stadium. Boreholes need to be taken to determine water table, underlying strata and their loading capacities, existing services. This just for the stadium. Add to this that you also have the proposed Hotel, Supermarket etc and how these loadings interact with each other, then you have a design basis. Then the stadium itself requires the concept to be approved. On approval it goes to initial design. Wind loadings, imposed loadings, differential settlement and a host of other factors then need to be taken into account and calculated allowing for the bearing capacity of the strata.
Considering all of the aspects involved, 10 years isn't that long.


Im happy with the net spend on players during the past 10 years , not so happy about the way we've been with regards to our managerial appointments and I'm certainly not happy we've how Enic has gone about our buisness with either extending WHL or building a new ground ...

With the managers I'm with you. Having said that, the majority of the managers we employed came with very good CV's. Christ, the one with the best CV ended up being probably the worst of the lot! As to the new ground business, read above.


You can call my viewpoint as bashing the club as much as you like , but its just how I see it...


The fact that you see these things in the worst possible light, despite evidence to the contrary, can only be construed as bashing the club. Your viewpoint on the ground demonstrates your lack of knowledge on the subject. Expecting a Civil Engineering project like this to be delivered from concept to completion in less than 10 years is, quite frankly, wishful thinking.

I'm speaking from experience here mate, I have been a Structural Engineer for the past 25 years, this is my forte.

To then go on and criticise the management, when you are totally unaware of the mechanics of the development process, is wrong. Pure and simple.


It could be argued that had we built the stadium a few years back despite Harringay councils reluctance to help, the shareholder that you seem so concerned about could well be better off along with us fans?

Now, regardless of the Civil Engineering hurdles, you forget the following;

1. We didn't own enough land to build a newer, larger stadium.
2. The priority was investment in the playing staff to get us away from being relegation candidates.
3. Only 10 years previously the club had been at deaths door thanks to Scholar.

Please enlighten me on how Enic would be able to build that new stadium without buying new land outside N17?



Seeing as you're so concerned for the shareholder then please look at the share price these past five years from a high of £1.45 to todays 44p ...Prior to that, it was lower than what it is today, I think it were down below 10p which allowed Enic to pick up shares on the cheap and take their total holding to 85%....Sometimes its best to invest to accumulate. I think had the stadium been built by now it would've been better for all concerned, the investor too and not just the fan ....

seebee1944 wrote:

I don't think it's club bashing to have concerns about certain ways it's being run. Whether you CHOOSE to believe nothing underhand has gone on is exactly that Choice.

It's a choice based on the evidence currently at hand. Why is it you've chosen to gloss over that part of my post. It never ceases to amaze me how, when posters have an opposing belief, every fact I put up is conveniently ignored in favour of what you choose to believe, despite the fact that what you choose to believe has no basis in fact whatsoever.

Explain that to me Seebee, how is it OK to believe we are in the wrong despite there being ZERO EVIDENCE to back that belief up?

I'm all ears as I'm obviously too dumb to see this revelation.


The£25m you mention is for the regeneration of the area as a whole and £8M is being considered as being set aside for the NPD.

8 million is the opening gambit. The negotiations here will be no different to player sales or any other business dealing. They'll start low, we'll start high and a sum will be agreed. Besides, the regeneration money is only part of what Levy is after from the Gov't.

If as you believe Levy is not really after the OS why is he STILL proceedingwith the judicial review I simply don't understand the thinking of wasting another shed load of money being paid in solicitors fees.

Because no deal has been agreed with the Mayor or the Gov't as yet. Once the deal is agreed the review will be dropped.


Just supposing the review is successful,and Spurs were awarded the OS would we then have to say sorry don't really want it we just wanted public funding for our own project.


Snowball in Hades my friend. Seriously though, I never believed for one second that Levy had this 'Masterplan' all along to use the OS to gain funding. There is no way on Gods Earth he could have foreseen Wet Sham getting the nod over us. However, the team have found a way to use the situation as leverage to broker a deal with the Gov't, and it seems to be working rather well at the moment.


Arnies right about the time scale as well because the original dates quoted for completion cannot now be made so another 2 years without the capacity we need.

seebee1944 wrote:

O.K been working all night so have only just seen your reply.

Not too hard I hope mate. The weekend has now landed.


Yes you're right the 'evidence' is in favour of Spurs although the bit I don't understand is that the £40M loan isn't actually to West Ham but an OS holding company from whom WH would rent the stadium. I can only assume that this was a way of getting round the points that Spurs are raising.

That is actually news to me seebee, I was totally unaware of that. TBH I don't really understand the ramifications of that either so I guess either I'll have to ask my company's brief, which I doubt I could be bothered to do, or wait to see what the review findings are, if it ever gets that far.

No the part I am not comfortable with is the allegations that the PI involved was using illegal methods to gather information. If this is true I cannot believe that Mr Levy did not know.

There's knowing before and after the fact mate. I can't see Levy instructing them to use whatever means necessary TBH. Whether you believe he knew afterwards all depends on how you view Levy. I'm not naive enough to believe he's Whiter than White, but until he's PROVEN to have committed a wrongdoing then yes, I'll defend him to the hilt. Democratic process my friend, innocent until proven guilty.


The £8M being set aside as far as I understand is not subject to negotiation but part os a package of £25M for the regeneration of Tottenham and Spurs being one of the (if not the) biggest employers.

Yes it is. The 'extra' that I believe Levy is after is not more of the regeneration money, it's other aspects like getting the Gov't to agree to the area being declared an 'Enterprise Zone.' This will bring Tax breaks, I believe, and make it easier to attract potential investment, thus making the funding of the project that much easier. A declaration like that could, potentially, be worth more than the 25 million I mentioned before.

The original announcement of the new stadium stated that Spurs hope to be playing there at the beginning of the 2012/13 season now that is probably at least two years further away.

The key word there is Hope. Various obstructions, not the least being the Council, prevented the ability of the club to implement all of the planned strategies. 'The best laid plans of Mice and Men' and all that Squire!
We are talking about the single, biggest project ever undertaken by the club in its entire 130 (I'm rounding up) year History. They can't afford to f*ck this up in any way, shape or form. If you want to see the ramifications of cocking an enterprise like that up, just look at the Wembley Stadium fiasco. The way the economy has gone tits up too hasn't helped. The credit crunch has been going on for nigh on 2 years now too hasn't it? Banks have tightened their belts and are, largely, refusing to fund corporate loans? They have in Australia anyway, and we've weathered CC better than most. There's a 2 year delay straight away.
In a nutshell, I'd rather DL spent an extra 3 years to make sure he got it right, than jump the gun and cost us untold millions.


You're blind faith in Levy is admirable but I'm sorry to me he seems to be someone who either can't admit he's wrong or if he does never knows where he's gone wrong.

ionman34 wrote:

ArnieArdiles wrote:Ion, its not about believing the utterances of the East End Spammers on their official site... I wrote in my post that I'm sure theres been some wrong doings by all the parties envolved..

How are you so sure? According to the facts immediately at hand, Spurs have done nothing wrong, neither have Spam. However, it appears, from advice given by legal counsel, that WH and Newham may have proceeded in an illegal manner regarding the loan of 40 million pounds. Hence us asking for a judicial review. Wh have 'claimed' that our PI has acted in an illegal manner. This remains to be proven. Personally I am highly doubtful. Be that as it may, it is irrelevant. We have employed a PI to investigate, how that entity investigates is up to them. Do you honestly think that DL has instructed them in how to do their job?

Be serious.

Spurs have taken the moral high ground and, in order to maintain that, have acted appropriately in every way. Those are the facts currently at hand. To suggest otherwise is to buy into the WH unsubstantiated spin and believe the worst of the THFC board. I question any Spurs 'fan' who does that when all other evidence points elsewhere.


Forget all that shareholder nonsense because we're a PLC ... We're owned by Enic with their 85% holding , who in turn are owned by Joe Lewis's Tavistock Group who's global investments exceed a billion dollars...

Don't be ridiculous. As a PLC we are owned by shareholders. Whether those shareholders number 10 or a thousand is irrelevant, the Chairman still has an obligation to them.


Never mind the fact that this investment company was willing to uproot us to the London Borough of Newham ffs lol but its all now about penny pinching, 10 years on from when the NLD project should really have been set in motion...

10 years ago the NPD WAS set in motion. Over that time, THFC have systematically purchased holdings all around the stadium proper. In many cases the negotiations for the land have taken a long period of time due to the reluctance of tenants/owners to sell. Unlike the Government, we cannot carry out compulsory purchase.
Then the concept and design stage has been undertaken. To do this a myriad of information is required just to decide the shape and orientation of the stadium. Boreholes need to be taken to determine water table, underlying strata and their loading capacities, existing services. This just for the stadium. Add to this that you also have the proposed Hotel, Supermarket etc and how these loadings interact with each other, then you have a design basis. Then the stadium itself requires the concept to be approved. On approval it goes to initial design. Wind loadings, imposed loadings, differential settlement and a host of other factors then need to be taken into account and calculated allowing for the bearing capacity of the strata.
Considering all of the aspects involved, 10 years isn't that long.


Im happy with the net spend on players during the past 10 years , not so happy about the way we've been with regards to our managerial appointments and I'm certainly not happy we've how Enic has gone about our buisness with either extending WHL or building a new ground ...

With the managers I'm with you. Having said that, the majority of the managers we employed came with very good CV's. Christ, the one with the best CV ended up being probably the worst of the lot! As to the new ground business, read above.


You can call my viewpoint as bashing the club as much as you like , but its just how I see it...


The fact that you see these things in the worst possible light, despite evidence to the contrary, can only be construed as bashing the club. Your viewpoint on the ground demonstrates your lack of knowledge on the subject. Expecting a Civil Engineering project like this to be delivered from concept to completion in less than 10 years is, quite frankly, wishful thinking.

I'm speaking from experience here mate, I have been a Structural Engineer for the past 25 years, this is my forte.

To then go on and criticise the management, when you are totally unaware of the mechanics of the development process, is wrong. Pure and simple.


It could be argued that had we built the stadium a few years back despite Harringay councils reluctance to help, the shareholder that you seem so concerned about could well be better off along with us fans?

Now, regardless of the Civil Engineering hurdles, you forget the following;

1. We didn't own enough land to build a newer, larger stadium.
2. The priority was investment in the playing staff to get us away from being relegation candidates.
3. Only 10 years previously the club had been at deaths door thanks to Scholar.

Please enlighten me on how Enic would be able to build that new stadium without buying new land outside N17?



Seeing as you're so concerned for the shareholder then please look at the share price these past five years from a high of £1.45 to todays 44p ...Prior to that, it was lower than what it is today, I think it were down below 10p which allowed Enic to pick up shares on the cheap and take their total holding to 85%....Sometimes its best to invest to accumulate. I think had the stadium been built by now it would've been better for all concerned, the investor too and not just the fan ....

Are you serious? You are currently living in the UK, in the midst of a recession, and you want to know why the share prices have dropped in the last 5 years?

Is it because we were relegated?
Is it because our exposure in Europe has been non existant?
Is it because we don't have a single star playing for us to raise our profile?


Or do you reckon this 'Credit Crunch' could have just a wee bit to do with it?


Sometimes I wonder if you are actually Nic!

ionman34 wrote:

Yes I understand there is complexities in the purchase of the land behind the Paxton Road but the land behind Worcester Road is owned by the club and under Alan Sugar we obtained planning permission to enlarge the East Stand shelf side taking our capacity upto 44,500 ... Theres been an ever growing season ticket waiting list for some years now so the the extra 8,000 per game would've seen the club quickly benefit...

Quickly benefit? In what way?
Before you make sweeping statements like this you should have something to back it up. You seem to think planning pemission means you can start building straight away. You also seem to think that THFC sat on their hands and did nothing.
If there was quick profit to be made, as you seem to be suggesting, you think they'd have jumped at it? I do.
More realistically, I'd say they looked at the overall cost of lost revenue, building costs, associated costs involved with rerouting the public thoroughfares etc and realised that the gain was minimal. Quite possibly they weighed it up against their projections concerning a new stadium development, including retail aspects, and saw it as a no brainer.
As I wasnt involved in the process I really don't know.

And I know as much as you do.

Sorry I didnt reply sooner Ion ,,,you efforts deserved a reply but I got side tracked by that nonsense on here ... Will attempt to answer as best I can off the top of my head but I'm I should be in bed as its already 3am here lol

Newcastle have had additional revenues due to the ground extension for a number of years now, something like 12,000 added to their gate. Okay they've fcked things up but it was the right thing for them to do , surely you can see that ?.Are you serious you cant see that had we a 44,000 stadium capacity we wouldnt have been better off these past few years ? ..Alan Sugar costed it, got the planning permission but decided to sell his controlling stake in the club to Enic instead . ...If as you say Enic then decided on extending the East Stand as not being cost effective then all the more reason to get full on with building a completely new stadium on the current site or even look at other locations along the Meridian Way road or somewhere along the North Circular, but stay in Tottenham or within a stones throw and not trying that upsticks to Newham marlaky, well thats just my opinion ...


Newcastle United had similar problems with St James Park ...They had a season ticket demand but the ground was to small ... What they did was gauge the feeling of their supporters about a ground move , they wernt told by their chairman Sir John Hall that the majority of fans were happy to upsticks like ours did .. So instead, they extended two sides of the ground . this has given the stadium a lopsided look but the club has benefited due to the increase of match revenue ...

They've benefitted? In what way? As I understand it they barely have a pot to P*ss in.

They fcked up , increased revenue does not guarantee sucess on the field ....You pay the likes of Kieron Dyer £90 grand per week , you get what you deserve


Whilst no two situations are the same , Arsenal first submitted their new ground plans in the year 2000, they then got on with it with a determination to build asap ... Four years later the demolition started and 2 years later in 2006 the final brick was laid .... If the determination is there, rather than throwing up every obstacle as an excuse to do nothing, things can acualy get done ! To date, Enic have WHL exactly the same as the day they took over the club's ownership , the stadium we see today is down to Alan Sugar..

You really aren't listening, or should I say reading, are you. It took them 6 years from submission. Submission occurs after concept and design. Concept and design often takes years in itself. On the whole, from concept to completion, the Shamirates was close to a 10 year deal. Like I said, I worked for the company that built it. Islington Borough Council were also proactive in the construction process. Rather than present obstacles to the goons, they actively removed them. Obstacles an excuse? It seems to me that the only one using them as an excuse is you. Sticking your fingers in your ears and singing 'la la la, you're just making excuses' is absolutely ridiculous. Wembley Stadium is a prime example of just how much damage a local authority can do when it goes out of its way to make life difficult.

I'm not defending the angels at Harringey Council and we can sit here and pat Levy on the back for sticking to his guns on saving a million there and a million there , musnt let the council take advantage of the best thing in their borough , but then as I've said, our owner has over a billion dollars in various global investments and if the will is there ...
Okay I concede , with your work experience you obviously are more in the know about these things than me , so what approx timescale could you see ahead for us from where we are now untill the completion of the NPD ?


Regarding if I may so Ion , your naivety regarding the share price .. There are plenty of share prices that are now higher than what they were five years ago , its just the indexes overall that are now lower .. If a company is well run and has progressed then the share price reflects this ...What we've seen with Spurs PLC is apparently a company run well, yet the share price has plummeted. A two thirds collapse in the share price over the five years, the cancellation of the dividend and to top it all, a chairman that has given himself a 600% wage increase in that time ! And you think the chairman losses sleep over his responsibility to the small shareholder ?

What we've seen with the Spurs share price is a takeover of 85% of the total shares , on the cheap if I may add ..

Whatever, that doesn't explain the plummet. You make a vague 'it appears to be run well' throw away statement but offer no valid reason to refute what I said.
Evidently you're taking a shot at DL, I'd like you to explain your theory as to why the plummet has occured. Offering your 'plenty of share prices are higher' statement is rather naive too. Rio Tinto shares have sky rocketed. Has sweet FA to do with how the company is run, rather reflects the demand for coal from China. I freely admit that I don't understand the nuances involved in share trading etc, but neither am I stupid. I wonder how much the share prices have risen with the advent of Ade and the news that Modric remains as an asset.
I also think it's naive in the extreme to ignore the effect that the Credit crunch has had on the shares. Naive or deliberate as it doesn't suit your argument.

Football shares have rarely been an attraction for the serious investor ... I think there are two main factors as why the share price is low
1). There are 213,858,987 Ordinary Shares in issue and of the total issued share capital, ENIC International Limited own 85.0%, which by my calculations is over 180 million shares. This leaves 32 million shares amongst the smaller investors and we musnt forget that Alan Sugar holds 8% of the remaining 32 million, so that intself is something like another 3 million shares ( I could be wrong and he owns 8% of the total shares but its late and I cant check lol ) an without looking, theres probably institutional investor holdings too also include ... So in effect share the price is determined more by what Enic decides to do with their 85% holding rather than the performance of the company...
2). Football is an odd industry in the fact that the percentage of turnover that goes into paying the wages, in some cases..80 -90% and even more...The football industry is a basket case where wages to turnover is concerned... This is not not mirrored in other industries so the serious investor stays away ....

Thank you Seebee! I don't think it's club bashing to have concerns about certain ways it's being run.

So Ion , what's this crap about that I'm finding newer ways to bash the club I papport to support and now I'm Nic the Gooner ?

Huh? Never claimed you were finding newer ways, and the reference to Nic was a tongue in cheek remark because he was constantly banging on about our profit/loss margins and share prices.

I guess the smily flew a bit over your head.

I'm arguing with you Arnie, not slagging you off.


No Ion , I'm on a Spurs messageboard and I speak my mind as I see things ...I dont stay quiet when we lose or win and I'm happy to comment on the good things as well as the bad things regarding our club

Never said you couldn't and actually welcome it as it gives me something to argue about when I disagree. As you've stated, you're on a Spurs message board and speak your mind. Did you expect the rest of us to knuckle the forehead and agree with your every word?

A bit hypocritical to claim the moral high ground with the 'speaking your mind' statement then to take umbrage when someone else speaks theirs in opposition to yours. If you don't want an argument then write a blog.

Nope, I dont expect everybody on here to agree with me lol........I made the speaking my mind response, in reply to what you wrote in your opening post in this thread, when you wrote: Maybe you should consider this instead of finding newer ways to bash the club you purport to support. ... If the 'newer ways to bash the club' wasnt a jibe, apologises from me for seeing it that way but then what was it ?....Okay no worries about the Nic thing then as you said it with the share price chat in mind, where I thought wrongly, that you were carrying on with your little jibe about my support for Spurs ...Hope that makes sense ? lol

I notice you have no comment on the game at Man Utd ... I'd like you to know its not seen as betrayal to pass a comment after a drubbing and Im sure most of us on here wont think any less of you if you did ..

Made no comment as I had none to make. Your sarcasm is noted though.

I'd ask you a question though, do you feel that you need validation in a criticism Arnie, that if you make one it needs to be corroborated by your peers?
If a criticism is made, that I agree with, I'll not comment unless I have something further to add than 'Hmm, yes you're right, I totally agree' I don't come here to massage ego's.

No sarcasm intended , in fact I were being far more genuine than you would know ....I come here not to just post and have my posts as you say corroborated... I want to see input by as many of my fellow Spurs on the forum as to why sometimes we get it wrong/right on the field and more often than not I dont even reply ...Im just intrested in differing views of the game...I actualy enjoy reading the many viewpoints on the actual games, more than anything else to do with our club such as the off the field politics and the transfer gossip....



Admittedly I can be rather abrasive and confrontational in my arguments. It's the way I am and I really mean no offence mate, please don't take any.
And please don't see this as me attempting to shout you down. I accept that Levy makes mistakes, I've already admitted as much. I'm also willing to accept that I could well be wrong in much of what I believe.

But as I have posted so often before in the past, you need to prove this to me. I don't understand this ready willingness to believe every bad thing that the 'meeja', opposition club or random Joe off the street spout about our club. Particularly when there's not a shred of evidence to back it.
This willingness to believe Wet Sham's accusations is what gets me. Brady has actually come out and claimed that her mobile phone was hacked. How the f*ck would she know that? Was she MI6 in a previous life? Lishenshed to kill? Why did she only report this AFTER the investigation revealed potential wrongdoings in their OS dealings? Surely she'd have called in the cozzers right away?

But no. We make a report on possible shadey dealings, no accusations mind, and then this all comes out in response.

And is lapped up by Spurs fans!!!

A little abrasive at times? Well we've all done so I'm sure ...We dont all attend WHL but we're all pretty diehards I guess ...Its cos the club is close to our hearts so no worries...


As for lapping it all up, nothings been lapped up here ... I said in my opening post that I'm sure theres been wrong doings by all the parties involved, by that I mean us, the Spams and the Olympic People! The OP how they've played Spurs all along by getting us involved with the bid just to make the whole bidding process for the stadium look fair in the public eye, then not even giving us one single vote in the voting charade...Only after the voting, it was made clear their intention was never to award us the stadium on the grounds we wouldnt retain the running track ... Our financial package was far more secure than the Spams and the local authority loan I agree is scandalous, but that fact alone should've told us something about, just how much we were wanted in Newham ...
I'm a Spurs supporter. Every time, my first instinct is biased to Spurs when no evidence is available. I can't understand this ready acceptance. What is worse, I can't understand the stubborn refusal to accept any of my arguments pointing out that there is no evidence. The ONLY logical conclusion I can draw from this is that these parties WANT to believe that we have engaged in wrongdoing in order to fue their anti Levy/Redknapp/whatevertheycanthinkofnext rants.

TBH it's f*cking infuriating at times.

Our opinions are made up out of a mish mash of information we obtain ..We're supporters and not always privvy to the actual facts and that is why I prefer to chat about what I can actualy see such as a game of football or what I hear from the lips of our manager , players and chairman...

This Stratford saga as I said in my opening post, I wish it would just go away, its a gripe I have with Levy for behaving like a Grenwich Gooner, upping sticks and not giving a damn about our roots and setting up in East London .... This is off the field stuff and sometimes we feel without knowing all the ins and outs, that we have to comment because we care for the club ... Im not going to sing Levy's praises on every issue and I'm not going to elevate him to some god like status amongst football chairman either , especialy where this whole sorry Stratford saga is concerned...

Im not even going to check this post cos its nearly 4am and Im heading to my pit, so good luck with it lol