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BazSpur
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anicoll5
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    we havent had it

    anicoll5
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    we havent had it - Page 3 Empty Re: we havent had it

    Post by anicoll5 Mon Feb 14 2011, 01:18

    I am not remotely against Spuds moving to a bigger stadium any more than I am wholly in favour of it Lew

    I am pointing out that it is a huge gamble, extending over many years and which, if it goes wrong, will ruin your club. I simply don't think the argument that ' we have to borrow £450 million to compete with the big boys' stands up.

    We could build and fill two Emirates but we would not have the spending power of Al Mansour or Abramovich

    We have £240 million of debt still outstanding on the Emirates in the form of bonds payable over 20 years at a very modest rate, about £12 million a year - fortunately those bonds were issued in 2007 when the world was a very different place - I doubt we would even get them onto the market nowadays.

    As for a new stadium creating massive funds to 'buy the best in the world' as far as I know we buy what we can afford - and so will you

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    Post by BazSpur Mon Feb 14 2011, 01:26

    The problem is though, we really cannot stay where we are. We need a bigger stadium if nothing else to allow those on the waiting list to watch their team play. Of course it's a risk that sort of venture always is but we can't stagnate we must move on.
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    Post by Guest Mon Feb 14 2011, 06:33

    That Damned Mark wrote:"You bet your bottom dollar you would like spurs to stay at 36,000 whl.........."

    Quite. Staying put would put you in massive debt that will take many many years to overcome, and the ability to compete in the transfer market during this 'transitional period' lol will be greatly affected.

    I'm not sure why you think i'm joking?

    ionman: "You were chasing revenue so that you could compete at the highest level. At that time it was due to payments through the turnstiles. Nowadays that is just a part of the story."

    There's clearly no dispute over it. Plumstead was a mare to get to, also the munitions factory work had been shifted north (scotland from memory?). It was a no brainer as business decisions go.


    From a goon pov we'll just deride whatever happens. The truth amongst adult football fans is that Spurs have to find a way to increase revenue to continue to compete at the top level, - whether thats NPD or a move is neither here not there.
    One thing though, regular improved attendances up to around 50,000 isn't a guarantee of success, - just ask Newcastle and Sunderland.


    Exactly the point with newcastle and sunderland mark, they cant get success with 50,000 gates so how are we meant to compete with 36,000 ? however i would half suspect that half the problems with those two northern clubs are that they are unfashionable and dont have managers that stay long enough simply because they arent good enough.

    I never claimed that increasing tottenhams fan base potential with a new stadium would guarantee success, where have i claimed that ? but if we dont maximise income than we wont even have the chance of giving it a go.

    Listen ! if we dont win something, or compete in the cl then we will get our players picked off by those clubs who year after year dominate the riches of football, and thats what i want to see avoided, how do you enjoy seeing fabregas mentioned as moving each season ? and how lack of success at arsenal is the reason for him being courted by other clubs.
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    we havent had it - Page 3 Empty Re: we havent had it

    Post by Guest Mon Feb 14 2011, 06:40

    anicoll5 wrote:I am not remotely against Spuds moving to a bigger stadium any more than I am wholly in favour of it Lew

    I am pointing out that it is a huge gamble, extending over many years and which, if it goes wrong, will ruin your club. I simply don't think the argument that ' we have to borrow £450 million to compete with the big boys' stands up.

    We could build and fill two Emirates but we would not have the spending power of Al Mansour or Abramovich

    We have £240 million of debt still outstanding on the Emirates in the form of bonds payable over 20 years at a very modest rate, about £12 million a year - fortunately those bonds were issued in 2007 when the world was a very different place - I doubt we would even get them onto the market nowadays.

    As for a new stadium creating massive funds to 'buy the best in the world' as far as I know we buy what we can afford - and so will you



    So why does levy want to move then ? because its a massive gamble that could cause the demise of tottenham as you are claiming or because he wants to realise the potential in the club from its fan following ?

    Nic ! levy is a very clever business man, i cant see him taking risks ! can you ?
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    we havent had it - Page 3 Empty Re: we havent had it

    Post by anicoll5 Mon Feb 14 2011, 06:58

    Because, as you rightly say Lew, Levy is a businessman whose primary interest is in maximizing the potential Profit he can draw from the Tottenham project

    Spuds at present is worth maybe £200-£250 million

    Arsenal are worth £550-600 million

    60k stadium should increase the value of Spuds towards that of AFC

    You can see however why the £450 million NPD cost just does not add up
    That Damned Mark
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    we havent had it - Page 3 Empty Re: we havent had it

    Post by That Damned Mark Mon Feb 14 2011, 09:14

    Lew: "how do you enjoy seeing fabregas mentioned as moving each season ? and how lack of success at arsenal is the reason for him being courted by other clubs."

    If Man U can sell Ronaldo then no club is safe of having their better/best players snaffled are they?
    But you're point is good, as is nics.
    Something must be done, and the cheaper option (ie OS) is always going to be more attractive than a £450 mill NPD.. the cost of these things tends to run away a bit as well Shocked
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    Post by That Damned Mark Mon Feb 14 2011, 09:37

    shearspur wrote:i am happy were we are till a viable other option comes along nearer to "home", im sure levy will be looking for other options as we speak.

    This might well be the best course of action.
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    Post by cynicsid Mon Feb 14 2011, 19:11

    To borrow £450M at lets say 8% is going to cost £36M a year in interest alone so to pay it off over 15 years or so would probebly cost something like £50 to £55M a year which is about what the extra revenue might be. ( I say might be)
    Nameing rights could possibilly bring that down quite a bit. The Os site they are talking about £150M. We wont get anything like that at WHL though. But there is the flats , hotel & Supermarket to right down the debt with. The likelyhood of selling them all off quick at good rates is pretty small though and I think anyone buying a hotel in mid Tottenham needs their head testing to be honest. Quite possibly we could rake back £100-150MM here

    If Banks see us as a high risk loan which until the developement gets sold off I think we would be, that 8% could go up to 10 or 11% thats the bit , I think, that makes the deal unviable right now. We would be in a position that we couldnt afford not to sell when good offers are made for players.

    Not knowing all the detail you would have to say best case senario we would be a few million better off a year for the first few years and then better and better as we go on, Worst case? unfortunatly Bust!

    One other option we have is to sell off the developement rights, This isn't the nost profitable way faorward but would reduce the risk a lot. If we got £80-100M for the land and planning consent we would only have to find about £150M more to build the stadium and the rest becomes someone elses problem. The loan would be much cheaper but no rent comming in from the land would reduce overall income. But we would be quids in right from the start as soon as the stadium was built.

    phew! long post fro this time in the morning.
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    we havent had it - Page 3 Empty Re: we havent had it

    Post by BazSpur Mon Feb 14 2011, 21:21

    Hey Sid. You wouldn't want to take care of my finances would you by any chance? lol!
    anicoll5
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    we havent had it - Page 3 Empty Re: we havent had it

    Post by anicoll5 Mon Feb 14 2011, 22:03

    Wasn't hard to do was it Sid - a wonder someone in charge did not do the same arithmetic at least in September when the revised planning permission was agreed, or better still before the deal was signed off
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    Post by cynicsid Tue Feb 15 2011, 06:45

    anicoll5 wrote:Wasn't hard to do was it Sid - a wonder someone in charge did not do the same arithmetic at least in September when the revised planning permission was agreed, or better still before the deal was signed off

    I take it you think they didn't?

    Levy intends Kicking Lammy's nut's up into his mouth before this is over. Watch this space.

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