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ArnieArdiles
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    We Only Sing When We're Winning

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    We Only Sing When We're Winning Empty We Only Sing When We're Winning

    Post by ArnieArdiles Wed Oct 24 2012, 05:46

    I've been reading our thoughts on the Chavs game on here and elsewhere and there's not much I can add . We were missing our two most influential players and added to their absence what I regard as cheap give-away goals.
    I were looking forward to our full strength team taking their best first eleven ( IMO Cahill and Luiz are better than Terry) and I would've taken a point beforehand . Hearing our best two were out, I were just hoping for a decent performance and I felt it were as best I could've hoped for in the circumstances. At the end of the day, their team is better than ours and our errors were punished with clinical finishing.

    So I weren't to upset as normally when tasting defeat to them but what I were miffed about was our support , or rather the lack of it . I don't get over to WHL nowadays but I do know people that do and they all tell me the atmosphere bar a few games has been horrible there the last few seasons where singing on the team often incurs looks from fellow fans.

    Here's a link on the lack of support ...

    http://insiden17.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/we-are-embarrassment.html

    I just wondered your views on this , why it is we've become like them down the road .
    Has the true vociferous fan been priced out of WHL ?



    http://www.topspurs.com/newsnow/thfccol-221012a.htm
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    We Only Sing When We're Winning Empty Re: We Only Sing When We're Winning

    Post by vis Wed Oct 24 2012, 06:05

    Arnie I don't go to any stadiums these days (even that of my nearest pro club Gillinhgam). Cost is a big part of it. I cannot justify £100+ to visit Spurs to watch 90 minutes of football. But for me the main thing is the advent of the all-seater stadium. This has killed what football was about for me as an individual. The terraces, banter & comradeship.
    With the advent of the all-seater you have a different type of fan attending games. Maybe not as "old skool"? There for the event rather then the team? And this is what happens at EVERY ground these days. The away support will make noise as to travel away takes a more intense almost "hardcore" type of supporter. On the telly/web feeds I hear a good noise in general from the Spurs support but yes there is a nervousness about the ground that you can even feel at home. I think this has to do with having some frail tendencies in the mentality of the team for so long now. Sometimes the spine of steel is evident but all too often a soft underbelly is only one mistake away from being exposed. It has probably now become so in-grained in the home support that it happens automatically. Given time and a run of positive results & it will evaporate. The negativity sometimes directed at the team at half-time is confusing to say the least. Maybe it is something to do with the new type of supporter I alluded to? I've paid my money, a lot of money, and this isn't up to the standard I expected so therefore I am entitled to show my displeasure? Maybe indeed.
    And to end I will ask the question about "atmosphere" at other grounds in the EPL? How many are truly rocking for a full 90 minutes these days? Not many and White Hart Lane is still in the upper top half of good noise generating crowds . . . .
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    We Only Sing When We're Winning Empty Re: We Only Sing When We're Winning

    Post by ArnieArdiles Wed Oct 24 2012, 06:22

    I agree Vis. It's the the same at other grounds too so I also put it down to the all seater stadia .

    Years ago the singing fans would've been belting out their songs more than an hour prior to kick-off. At the weekend in a game billed as one of our biggest of the season, it's 10 mins before kick-off and all we can see are blue seats. Singing even seems to be frowned upon on by some sections of the 'support' and the only time these same people seem to raise their voices is when there's a complaint to be made. This is sadly what I'm getting told.

    Another thing that caught my eye at the weekend was the numerous fans sat there clicking away at their digital cameras and mobiles, check it out next time one of games is televised.
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    We Only Sing When We're Winning Empty Re: We Only Sing When We're Winning

    Post by vis Wed Oct 24 2012, 06:52

    Yup Arnie for better or worse the game has changed as has the way it is followed. The amount of empty seats you see when the 2nd half kicks off is quite frankly shocking (shocking I tells ya). It's easy to harp on with rose tinted spectacles about the good ole days but back in the day the only reason supporters would miss the start of a half was if the queue to the P*ss sodden toilets was exceptionally long or they had taken a right hammering round the back of the stands! I have to be careful here so as not to tar all with a sweep of the same brush but the "modern" supporter is a completely different beast to days of old (in truth not that old). Whole families. Tourists. Corporate. Well heeled chaps on a stag do/works do/ any type of do but what ho lets get tickets for some footie. There are still many true supporters who go for the love of Spurs but I do wonder what percentage of the crowd are there for a jolly afternoon/evening out with no real deep feeling for the final result? Imagine how that percentage would creep up if the stadium was 60,000? Hence the increased hushed silence at clubs with big stadiums (is increased silence an oxymoron?). As I said I still think The Lane is one of the more atmospheric grounds in the EPL but the times they are a changing and it is noticeable . . . .
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    Post by ArnieArdiles Wed Oct 24 2012, 07:35

    Look at Old Trafford in injury time ....Half the home support are already out their seats going home...jokers..
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    We Only Sing When We're Winning Empty Re: We Only Sing When We're Winning

    Post by ArnieArdiles Wed Oct 24 2012, 07:53

    vis wrote:Yup Arnie for better or worse the game has changed as has the way it is followed. The amount of empty seats you see when the 2nd half kicks off is quite frankly shocking (shocking I tells ya). It's easy to harp on with rose tinted spectacles about the good ole days but back in the day the only reason supporters would miss the start of a half was if the queue to the P*ss sodden toilets was exceptionally long or they had taken a right hammering round the back of the stands! I have to be careful here so as not to tar all with a sweep of the same brush but the "modern" supporter is a completely different beast to days of old (in truth not that old). Whole families. Tourists. Corporate. Well heeled chaps on a stag do/works do/ any type of do but what ho lets get tickets for some footie. There are still many true supporters who go for the love of Spurs but I do wonder what percentage of the crowd are there for a jolly afternoon/evening out with no real deep feeling for the final result? Imagine how that percentage would creep up if the stadium was 60,000? Hence the increased hushed silence at clubs with big stadiums (is increased silence an oxymoron?). As I said I still think The Lane is one of the more atmospheric grounds in the EPL but the times they are a changing and it is noticeable . . . .

    I don't want to go back to the old days. In fact I'm fine with the all seaters. I'm not happy that we're one of the most expensive club to follow but such is life and with our capacity perhaps the prices are understandable. However I do think the club should do more in encouraging home support . Similar to the 125th anniversary game with the giving out of the flags , something like that every now and again to show appreciation to the paying customer may help.

    For the home Maribor game there's another 1882 home support effort similar to what has been done for the Next Gen Games.

    http://www.thefightingcock.co.uk/2012/10/1882-announcement-nk-maribor/


    Did you read that link on the first post regarding our prices . Its shocking . I've been looking for a site I had but appear to have lost regarding football prices in Europe and it has to be said , London prices compared to Madrid , Barcelona, Munich, Rome is extortionate, pure and simple.
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    Post by BazSpur Wed Oct 24 2012, 08:11

    The corporate lot are to blame as well. They go with no real love for the Game or the team. i am reminded of the mid to late eighties when I had a part time job as a Car Park attendant at WHL. One night a well dressed bloke in suit and trimmings came to the car park at half time to get something from his car. A brief case if I remember rightly. I asked if the score was 1-0 to us as I had heard the roar signalling we had scored. Just making conversation really. His answer left me shaking my head in disbelief "I don't know he said. Someone scored. I'm here at a business meeting in one of the boxes. Haven't watched the game much. Don't like football." My first thought was "That ticket could have gone to a real fan" Yes my friends the writing was already on the wall. Times were a changing. Remember General Burkinshaw's words as he left WHL for the last time. "There used to be a football club over there." He knew it and now we all know it.
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    Post by shearspur Wed Oct 24 2012, 08:18

    West stand= no singing . Paxton =few attempted songs fizzle out abysmally. East stand= few in bottom corner sing,usually just in response to the park lane. Park lane = best for singing but not as it used to be.org was embarrassing v villa, they out sing us and took the P*ss all day , shall we sing a song for you, we forgot that you were here, etc. until we took the lead, very quiet. Couple of renditions of oh when the spurs roused whole ground , but it ain't great for some reason.
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    Post by shearspur Wed Oct 24 2012, 08:25

    Not PC I know, but to many women there as well. They don't sing and join in as much IMO. the stewards are always warning people about stuff as well.
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    We Only Sing When We're Winning Empty Re: We Only Sing When We're Winning

    Post by vis Wed Oct 24 2012, 08:28

    Do you think its elevated expectation Shear or just how so many grounds are these days? You go often so are our man in the know . . . . .
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    Post by ArnieArdiles Wed Oct 24 2012, 08:38

    Where do you sit , Shear ?

    I got a cousin who goes with his son and a couple of mate also go , they sit in the upper Park Lane end and they also say the same thing about the stewards that they come down on fans standing and singing .

    But is it that much harder to break into song whilst seated?
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    We Only Sing When We're Winning Empty Re: We Only Sing When We're Winning

    Post by ArnieArdiles Wed Oct 24 2012, 08:44

    BazSpur wrote:The corporate lot are to blame as well. They go with no real love for the Game or the team. i am reminded of the mid to late eighties when I had a part time job as a Car Park attendant at WHL. One night a well dressed bloke in suit and trimmings came to the car park at half time to get something from his car. A brief case if I remember rightly. I asked if the score was 1-0 to us as I had heard the roar signalling we had scored. Just making conversation really. His answer left me shaking my head in disbelief "I don't know he said. Someone scored. I'm here at a business meeting in one of the boxes. Haven't watched the game much. Don't like football." My first thought was "That ticket could have gone to a real fan" Yes my friends the writing was already on the wall. Times were a changing.


    Remember General Burkinshaw's words as he left WHL for the last time. "There used to be a football club over there." He knew it and now we all know it.

    That's awful Baz .... I've only been to one game at the Lane where I've sat in one of those boxes and for me it were rubbish but I did know the score ffs lol

    And yeah ,,, Burky knew ..
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    Post by shearspur Wed Oct 24 2012, 08:51

    Always try for park lane first, if not then Paxton. I have sat twice this season in east lower though.prefer the ends though Arnie.was in Paxton front row v villa.
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    Post by shearspur Wed Oct 24 2012, 09:06

    Sorry vis, I replied to your previous question but its not shown up, I'm on my phone at moment . I just said, I think its nerves in the crowd as we start off singing and good atmosphere but if were not ahead by 20 mins the usual moaners start shouting negatives or getting on one players mistakes, it filters into the crowd and kills the atmosphere IMO. It picks up if we score obviously but it needs to be rocking as I said in my phantom post it sends shiver down my spine to hear whole ground getting behind them, so I can't imagine how players must feel, bet they love it
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    We Only Sing When We're Winning Empty Re: We Only Sing When We're Winning

    Post by Guest Wed Oct 24 2012, 09:11

    i thought that when i was watching the game. i kept hearing the chavs fans sing yet hardly heard ours
    .

    its like baz said its all corporate lot

    plus loads of toruist who come over. they also spend more in the club shop then your regular fan
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    Post by shearspur Wed Oct 24 2012, 09:53

    That's true as well lought,loads of foreign support there now. Lot of Norwegians I noticed last time and japs. Don't know if they sing, all taking pictures though.
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    Post by Guest Wed Oct 24 2012, 10:50

    because of the shirt sales.
    a jap will go in spurs shop and spend 200 and think nothing of it.

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    We Only Sing When We're Winning Empty Re: We Only Sing When We're Winning

    Post by BazSpur Wed Oct 24 2012, 17:17

    It's f*cking disgusting the way the game has gone re-Premier league clubs. It has been ripped away from the real supporters and now we get a mixture of Corporate, the inquisitive and foreign people taking tickets from real supporters who can't afford to go anymore. I really don't know how some people do it. I talk to a few on facebook who go home and away and follow Spurs in Europe.Then on the other hand I talk to some on facebook who like myself have very real reasons why they can no longer support the team at home or anywhere else. The Premier League has f*cked football for the ordinary fan. I used to love all the competitions we were in but now the League cup and to a certain extent the FA Cup are no longer taken seriously because they have been demoted in favour of the holy grail..........The Premiership and a CL place to the point now where some clubs i.e Arsenal cannot do without that 4th spot. All this group stage bollox is a money making excercise and of course the clubs that have the luxury of being in the position to play in the CL love it. Or rather the chairman and board of directors do. What a terrible state of affairs eh? It's gone from a working man's game to a plaything for some and the holy grail for others. Oh to turn the clock back to the carefree days before it became big business. But we can't. We are stuck with it for the foreseeable and we will never see the like again. Football is killing itself and it is football's own fault. How long before it goes completely down the plug hole with a World League? It will happen, it's on it's way.
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    Post by seebee1944 Wed Oct 24 2012, 21:53



    As you guys know I'm fortunate enough to have a season ticket in the Paxton and agree with most of what's been said. The one thing I would add is that tv now rules the game to the detriment of the ordinary fan. Last Saturday as an example, I have to work on Saturday mornings and by the time I got home and changed, it was a rush to actually get to the game. FFS 12.45 ko is ridiculous. So instead of getting to the game an hour before ko as we used to have to do just to get in, I arrived and the players were alreadfy on the pitch. So instead of an atmosphere building before the game everybody arrives later because they have a guaranteed seat. So less atmosphere.
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    Post by BazSpur Thu Oct 25 2012, 00:49

    Spot on Seebee. When there was terracing at the Lane I would get outside the ground some 2 hours before kick off get a burger have a drink by the time I got in there was about an hour to go and the ground would be 3/4 full and as you say Seebee the atmosphere would build with the Shelf, Paxton and Park lane singing. Great days mate. I went to Spurs V QPR last season. The first time since it had been an all seater. The atmoshpere was not how I remembered it. Very lack lustre these days. Repped Seebee.
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    Post by Guest Thu Oct 25 2012, 02:38

    have a rep baz. 2 brillant post from you
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    We Only Sing When We're Winning Empty Re: We Only Sing When We're Winning

    Post by BazSpur Thu Oct 25 2012, 02:55

    Cheers Lought.
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    We Only Sing When We're Winning Empty Re: We Only Sing When We're Winning

    Post by ArnieArdiles Fri Oct 26 2012, 03:11

    BazSpur wrote:Spot on Seebee. When there was terracing at the Lane I would get outside the ground some 2 hours before kick off get a burger have a drink by the time I got in there was about an hour to go and the ground would be 3/4 full and as you say Seebee the atmosphere would build with the Shelf, Paxton and Park lane singing. Great days mate. I went to Spurs V QPR last season. The first time since it had been an all seater. The atmoshpere was not how I remembered it. Very lack lustre these days. Repped Seebee.


    I made the same point in the third post of the thread with regards the build up to kick-off. It's a joke to see an empty stadium 10 mins before kick off . Yes I know the club is making money off the customers in the lobbys below the seats, selling the crappy beer and pies but upstairs where the seating is, surely an effort has to be made for those that want to participate in pre match song and banter.

    The club recognises the need for a good home vocal support and this shows in their plans for the new stadium with a Kop End style stand. But meanwhile what is being done at the Lane , do Levy and the board even care?

    How about a couple of employees from the official Spurs supporters club stand in the center circle prior to games, one with a Big Spurs flag and the other with a megaphone whipping up the home support , this goes on at plenty of clubs across Europe to good effect.

    I think there can be many more joint club and fan initiatives regarding home support. They should recognise a singing enclosure and at the moment that would have to be the Park Lane Lower/Upper . Occasionally the placing of blue and white flags on the seats ,an official pre-match Spurs song, perhaps a large official Spurs flag unfolded at the beginning of the games which would then be handed back to the stewards . In fact what is the problem with flags at
    WHL? We see flags at other grounds around Europe, we also see it at one or two grounds in the Premeir League like Anfield but this is rare it has to be said.

    I don't believe things cannot be improved and we let things go downhill just like them up the road . Fan participation in England in unison with the owners of the clubs falls short compared to some of the other European countries and only the contents of their wallets are all important .

    I like the way clubs in the Bundesliga do things, they also have part fan ownership and that may have something to do with it . Here's a couple of vids of Borussia Dortmund fans prior to kick off.

    If the will is there I'm sure things can be improved.







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    Post by ArnieArdiles Fri Oct 26 2012, 03:24

    shearspur wrote:Always try for park lane first, if not then Paxton. I have sat twice this season in east lower though.prefer the ends though Arnie.was in Paxton front row v villa.

    Paxton front row towards the west stand corner flag was my last season ticket , Shear. Nice view from there as the front row was slightly elevated behind the handicapped area and often the players would come towards us when celebrating a goal too Smile
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    Post by shearspur Fri Oct 26 2012, 08:38

    That's where the eleven who are playing go over to, to do their final warm up, short sprints etc, they get a good reception there.



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