Post here for your views on the riots.

ionman34 wrote:It wasn't that long ago that I told you guys my reasons for getting my family out of England. I said that I saw Democracy dying in the country and that it was only a matter of time before the place exploded.

Personally I don't believe democracy is dead or anywhere near dead. This has happened before, it's just a cycle of what happens every 20 years or so. You could say this was an accident because if duggan hadn't been shot it wouldn't have happened. There is always a catalyst for these things and I have more faith in people to believe this marks the end of democracy. Social scholars of one kind or another have been saying that for years anyway.

It gives me no pleasure to see what is occuring over there, it sickens me if I'm honest, but it hasn't surprised me and I'm afraid that I believe worse is to come.

You could be right ion. There may well be worse to come. On the other hand maybe not.

I believe you are now seeing the first death throes of democracy. Think of it like a Cancer, Democracy has been neglected by the people of England for far too long. It really hit me just how decadent the country had become when I was told that only around 40% had voted in a previous election. 40% of a population of over 100 million! so over 60 million people couldn't be bothered to exercise their right to have an influence on how our country is run? Unbelievable.

The figures you give for population are actually not true. www.google.com/publicdataSource: World Bank, World Development Indicators 61,838,154 [color:bcac=#666]- 2009 So nearly 62 million. But none the less it is true a lot of people don't use their vote. However, that is part o a democratic right is it not?



The excuse? They're all the same, it doesn't matter because they're all lying, robbing b*stards?

Yep, and it's true a lot of people here do think like that but I believe people feel the same all over the World, even the people in Australia who have to vote by law. I actually do believe people are slowly becoming more politically aware these days and although I haven't got the figures I would think more people vote proportionally now than say 40 years ago.

Mostly it's 'I just can't be arsed, so long as I can get my booze for 10 quid a carton and the cozzers turn a blind eye to me smoking weed, I'm happy.'

I would say there are a lot like that but not mostly, even the ones who don't vote are not all like that. I've met quite a few who don't fall into that category who don't vote for a variety of reasons. A lot of people are just not politically minded and take no interest in voting. And of course there are a lot who do like their £10 carton of beer and will make their way to the polling station.

Christ, if those 60 million had just voted No Confidence or None of the Above, it would have sent a serious message out that the population had zero confidence in our political system.

I would think lots of people have no confidence in the various political systems the World over mate. What we do is pick the one we think best matches our aspirations. If you're from a priveleged background in the main you will vote Tory, if you're not the chances are you will vote Labour. The rest will vote Lib Dem, Nationalist and then the extreme parties. The key is education. Privileged people are taught the benefits of voting and voting for the party that will benefit them. It will be taught in their high fee boarding schools and in there families so they know exactly which side their bread will be buttered. A lot of working classes will follow their parents but a lot won't have a clue why. Not all but a lot.

Instead, the message sent was 'we don't care, do as you will.' And the 'benefits' of that attitude are now being reaped. The British people now no longer have a right to complain because they've allowed this to happen with the apathy. It kills me to say this because History shows what now will happen.

A lot of that is true. I have had people pontificating to me about how this lot are sh*t and that lot are sh*t and I ask Do you vote? If they say no I will say well, you have no say in what the Government do. Don't complain, use your vote.

Anyone ever read 1984? I have. It is the most depressing piece of literature I've ever had the misfortune to read, and it is exactly how I see Britain headed in the future. Examples of how similar situations have panned out in History? Try the Nazi's. Germany was in economic ruin, their politicians were inept and the people were desperate for ANYONE to give them some direction. Up stepped a party with a clear goal and a scapegoat to blame all of the troubles on. A charismatic leader directed the thinking of a people who just wanted to hear all the right things being said.

I read 1984 years ago and although I suppose there are paralells to be made I think we are a long way off that. 1984 was a warning. Orwell wasn't saying it would happen, he was saying if you are not careful it could. Ever since that book was published peopke have been saying it's going to happen. I have more faith than that. There are paralells to be made with Alice in Wonderland if you look for them.

It's not like the Nazi party just suddenly appeared out of the Blue either. They were there for a while, gradually increasing their following and spreading their word.

Have you noticed any similarities in the UK? Any far right political parties increasing their 'fan base?'

Well, the BNP vote slumped at the last election and the National front no longer exist. UKIP which is a rigt wing political party are getting votes but they will never win an election. Some people maybe stupid but they aren't that stupid. Minor political parties come and go ion. They never amount to anything tangible. The two party system is still alive and kicking and when this coalition's term is finished or maybe before. The Lib Dems will be hit hard for what Clegg did.

It's a three step process, decadence, followed by Anarchy, followed by any one of three states, Fascism, Socialism or Dictatorship. Which one you get depends on just who gets into power, or takes it.

A long way off my friend. There is no trend toward that. it's not even on the horizon.

The Police already have the right frame of mind for a Police state. Being outnumbered won't really matter to them if they're armed. Anarchy is already reigning on the streets so the revolutionaries already have the groundwork in place. Fascist or Socialist all depends on who has the most appealing manifesto.

Anarchy is not reigning on the streets. What happened was a blip. In fact organised gangs and street crime were on the decrease when Labour were in due to the grants and money pumped into sink estates to help them get jobs and social centres etc. Of course the Tories have scrapped all that with the cuts they are applying.

I've already said it to my Family in the UK, those who can, get the Hell out of there before the ability is taken away from you.

There will be those who scoff at what I say, fine, I honestly hope and pray that I am wrong. But History is there to teach us lessons, to learn from mistakes made in the past. When you see the same mistakes, the same symptoms, then only a fool ignores them. Politicians want power for power's sake, it won't really matter to them how they exercise it, in fact they'd be happier with the death of democracy as it gives the opportunity to wield absolute power with zero accountability.

Democracy is for those who dream of the freedom to better their own lives and those of everyone around them. How can this be dreamt of when the majority of our youth are born into a culture of apathy, ignorance and shame. Dumbed down by the political institutions that are supposed to educate subsequent generations to take us on to brighter futures.

But again, the British people only have themselves to blame. Democracy means that you have the RIGHT to have your voice heard when the system breaks down. Britain drowned its voice in cheap Lager and drug abuse.

The riots are a symptom of the Cancer. They are the 'break out' that, when analysed by the doctor, shows that the Cancer has spread throughout the body and is now terminal. Some treatment now may just see the patient rally for a bit, but the prognosis remains the same, Democracy is dead in the fullness of time.

Don't have to add anymore I think I've covered it. We have to have hope, hope is if any political party is willing to put the effort in then the Armageddon you are predicting will never happen. I believe there are politicians in this country who are willing to do that. This last week has been bleak but we are a hardy Nation. We will fight for our rights. On the 4th night this week home owners, shop owners, ordinary people took to the streets and stood up to the looters. That spirit will always see us through. Always has mate. It's the Dunkirk spirit.

BazSpur wrote:

ionman34 wrote:It wasn't that long ago that I told you guys my reasons for getting my family out of England. I said that I saw Democracy dying in the country and that it was only a matter of time before the place exploded.

Personally I don't believe democracy is dead or anywhere near dead. This has happened before, it's just a cycle of what happens every 20 years or so. You could say this was an accident because if duggan hadn't been shot it wouldn't have happened. There is always a catalyst for these things and I have more faith in people to believe this marks the end of democracy. Social scholars of one kind or another have been saying that for years anyway.

Quite right, there is always a catalyst for these things. You state that it is a 20 year cycle but I don't swallow that Baz. 20 years ago we had riots in Tottenham over race. They stayed in Tottenham.
This year you have a peaceful protest that escalates to all out Anarchy, looting and confrontation with the law of the land in every major City in the country. That isn't cyclical, it's unprecedented. Even the Police hierarchy have stated that it is unprecedented and they have no hope of coping.
Now I never said it was the end of Democracy, I stated that we are seeing the death throes, the beginning of the end. the end could take years to come to fruition but it will come. As I said, History has shown this going back over 2000 years to the Romans.

It gives me no pleasure to see what is occuring over there, it sickens me if I'm honest, but it hasn't surprised me and I'm afraid that I believe worse is to come.

You could be right ion. There may well be worse to come. On the other hand maybe not.

Only time will tell mate. The problem is, if the symptoms are not recognised early, and rectified, time will tell that it is too late. For me the symptoms of a corrupt and decadent society are all out there in plain sight. The apathy towards voting, the 'bought' media, the reduction in education quality, the corrupt politicians and the ever increasing gap between the haves and have nots. History has shown, time and time again, that these are the precursors to a Democratic death. The lessons are all there in front of us but, as is usually the case, are being ignored by those who think they know better than those who went before them.



I believe you are now seeing the first death throes of democracy. Think of it like a Cancer, Democracy has been neglected by the people of England for far too long. It really hit me just how decadent the country had become when I was told that only around 40% had voted in a previous election. 40% of a population of over 100 million! so over 60 million people couldn't be bothered to exercise their right to have an influence on how our country is run? Unbelievable.

The figures you give for population are actually not true. www.google.com/publicdataSource: World Bank, World Development Indicators[color=black] 61,838,154 [color=#666]- 2009 So nearly 62 million. But none the less it is true a lot of people don't use their vote. However, that is part o a democratic right is it not?

Apologies Baz, I had actually thought that reports had shown that our population had topped 100 million last year. Nonetheless, I believe the percentage, which was the year before I left the UK in 2005, is fairly accurate. Whichever way you look at it, when nearly half of a country's population can't be bothered to exercise a constitutional right to vote on their own future, and would rather trust it to a complete stranger they neither like nor trust, then something is seriously wrong within that country.




The excuse? They're all the same, it doesn't matter because they're all lying, robbing b*stards?

Yep, and it's true a lot of people here do think like that but I believe people feel the same all over the World, even the people in Australia who have to vote by law. I actually do believe people are slowly becoming more politically aware these days and although I haven't got the figures I would think more people vote proportionally now than say 40 years ago.

Well that's one I'd argue Baz and only the figures would settle that one. 40 years ago the majority of the voting public still had vivid memories of a war with a regime that would have stripped away their rights to have a say in their own future.
As for Australia, yes, people complain about Political parties, leaders et al, but that is because they exercise their Democratic rights a lot more. You have to understand the Australian psyche mate, they're a fiercely Patriotic people who are extremely Nationalist and determined to put their stamp on a World that has pretty much looked down on them as 'uncouth ex criminals' for Donkey's years. Yes they are required to vote by Law, but that would make no difference, they're massively vocal in the Political forum and exercise their right to a voice at every opportunity. I see 20 somethings discussing politics in a serious manner, even engaged in a lot of it with them. These are working class youngsters who are articulate, purposeful and strog willed in their beliefs.
Can you say the same for young British?
If I ever engaged in a discussion on Politics with a youngster, when I was in Blighty, I got an 'It's all bollox, they're all lying cnuts.'
Real in-depth analysis.


Mostly it's 'I just can't be arsed, so long as I can get my booze for 10 quid a carton and the cozzers turn a blind eye to me smoking weed, I'm happy.'

I would say there are a lot like that but not mostly, even the ones who don't vote are not all like that. I've met quite a few who don't fall into that category who don't vote for a variety of reasons. A lot of people are just not politically minded and take no interest in voting. And of course there are a lot who do like their £10 carton of beer and will make their way to the polling station.

Granted it was a bit of an exaggeration mate, but it was to highlight a point really. The point being that most are just happy to ignore how their Country's future looks so long as they are getting their creature comforts for the best price possible.
Have you ever wondered why the duty was so significantly reduced on booze? Why the law is so lax with regards to the 'soft' drugs?
It keeps the mob placated. The Romans did it with free bread and wine too.


Christ, if those 60 million had just voted No Confidence or None of the Above, it would have sent a serious message out that the population had zero confidence in our political system.

I would think lots of people have no confidence in the various political systems the World over mate. What we do is pick the one we think best matches our aspirations. If you're from a priveleged background in the main you will vote Tory, if you're not the chances are you will vote Labour. The rest will vote Lib Dem, Nationalist and then the extreme parties.

But 60% never chose a single one! What does that say about their aspirations?

It says exactly what I've been talking about, they have none other than to carry on so long as the creature comforts are cheap and plentiful. Apathy mate, the first stage in the death of a democracy because apathy opens the door for someone to just come along and take those basic freedoms, that we take for granted, away whilst we are not looking.

It don't know for certain, but I'd surmise that the 40% who voted are from a relatively well off background, fleshed out by the politically active working class. These, apart from the working class who generally trend towards Socialism, are the ones with the best vested interest in maintaining the political status quo. The rich are getting richer so why would they look for change?

The key is education. Privileged people are taught the benefits of voting and voting for the party that will benefit them. It will be taught in their high fee boarding schools and in there families so they know exactly which side their bread will be buttered. A lot of working classes will follow their parents but a lot won't have a clue why. Not all but a lot.

And there it is, nail firmly on head Baz. Education.

The Government has systematically dumbed down state education over the last 10 - 20 years. 'Meeja' outlets have saturated the masses with opinion rather than reporting facts. They have been 'bought' by the highest bidders and used to peddle whatever message the purchaser wishes sold.
As Football fans we see this 'meeja hivemind' more apparently than anyone. We can see how the most elaborately contrived story can be swallowed whole by the majority and accepted as Gospel without the slightest shred of evidence.
You think that is restricted to the Football forum?
I certainly don't.
Lack of education restricts the ability to reason and reason is paramount during political contemplation.


Instead, the message sent was 'we don't care, do as you will.' And the 'benefits' of that attitude are now being reaped. The British people now no longer have a right to complain because they've allowed this to happen with the apathy. It kills me to say this because History shows what now will happen.

A lot of that is true. I have had people pontificating to me about how this lot are sh*t and that lot are sh*t and I ask Do you vote? If they say no I will say well, you have no say in what the Government do. Don't complain, use your vote.

Anyone ever read 1984? I have. It is the most depressing piece of literature I've ever had the misfortune to read, and it is exactly how I see Britain headed in the future. Examples of how similar situations have panned out in History? Try the Nazi's. Germany was in economic ruin, their politicians were inept and the people were desperate for ANYONE to give them some direction. Up stepped a party with a clear goal and a scapegoat to blame all of the troubles on. A charismatic leader directed the thinking of a people who just wanted to hear all the right things being said.

I read 1984 years ago and although I suppose there are paralells to be made I think we are a long way off that. 1984 was a warning. Orwell wasn't saying it would happen, he was saying if you are not careful it could. Ever since that book was published peopke have been saying it's going to happen. I have more faith than that. There are paralells to be made with Alice in Wonderland if you look for them.


The parallels are there because they're meant to be there. Alice in Wonderland was more than just a Fairy Tale, just as the 'Fairy Tales' by the Brothers Grimm were more than that. They are a social commentary couched in a story meant to be used as a guideline. The consequences of ignoring the warning in the story are then displayed.
1984 is the same but without the embellishment. You are 100% correct, Orwell was sending a warning. I'm happy to see it is still in the curriculum but, judging by the countrywide anarchy, the message is falling, predominantly, on deaf ears.


It's not like the Nazi party just suddenly appeared out of the Blue either. They were there for a while, gradually increasing their following and spreading their word.

Have you noticed any similarities in the UK? Any far right political parties increasing their 'fan base?'

Well, the BNP vote slumped at the last election and the National front no longer exist. UKIP which is a rigt wing political party are getting votes but they will never win an election. Some people maybe stupid but they aren't that stupid. Minor political parties come and go ion. They never amount to anything tangible. The two party system is still alive and kicking and when this coalition's term is finished or maybe before. The Lib Dems will be hit hard for what Clegg did.


Mate, minor political parties come and go in a healthy economic climate. When a persons lot is good then they are content. When everything goes tits up, and said person loses everything, whilst watching minorities getting richer, frustration sets in and needs an outlet. Said person will turn to whatever entity gives the most direction towards venting their frustration and anger. Enough Charisma and you'll have the mob eating out of your hands. Direct them towards whoever you blame and they'll willingly, eagerly even, attack mindlessly because rationale doesn't allow for the venting of the frustration. It will be couched in talk of 'retribution', freedom', 'your due', 'your colour', 'your nationality' and a plethora of other reasons. The root though is that it is a grab for power using the ignorance of the masses as their vehicle. Of course it is rare, because education has been steadily improving for many years, but it has been declining for a number of years now and it has all been so that a political power base. But tell enough lies and you get found out. Then steps in another liar who just tells the lies that people want to hear, fools them some more then you are waking up in a Police state.


It's a three step process, decadence, followed by Anarchy, followed by any one of three states, Fascism, Socialism or Dictatorship. Which one you get depends on just who gets into power, or takes it.

A long way off my friend. There is no trend toward that. it's not even on the horizon.

Depends on which horizon you are looking towards. I can see it on the one I'm viewing, have done since 2001. It's not something that happens overnight mate, but it is happening. The problem is that, more often than not, it is seen far too late.
Read Christopher Stasheff, in particular a book called Warlock, to the Magic Born. It should have an opening mini book to it called Escape Velocity. Although it is a Sci-Fi come Fantasy book, like Orwell and the Brothers Grimm, it is a social commentary, rather a neo-political one. In it he goes through all of the symptoms of a decadent democratic society leading into an anarchic/totalitarian state and the reasons behind them. So much resonates with the way I have seen the UK decline. Orwell showed the aftermath, Stasheff shows the preamble, albeit in quite a comedic way.


The Police already have the right frame of mind for a Police state. Being outnumbered won't really matter to them if they're armed. Anarchy is already reigning on the streets so the revolutionaries already have the groundwork in place. Fascist or Socialist all depends on who has the most appealing manifesto.

Anarchy is not reigning on the streets. What happened was a blip.


Seriously Baz? Every major City in the Country rioting a blip? The Police stating that it is 'unprecendented' a blip?

You can't honestly believe that surely?

In fact organised gangs and street crime were on the decrease when Labour were in due to the grants and money pumped into sink estates to help them get jobs and social centres etc. Of course the Tories have scrapped all that with the cuts they are applying.

What has ORGANISED crime to do with ANARCHY? One contradicts the other. As far as organised crime is concerned, a stable economic society is far more amenable. Stable economy means prosperous business means more money available to fleece.
Anarchy is detrimental to organised crime because it leads to authorities cracking down on everything. Anarchy leads to curfew, leads to Police state, leads to totalitarianism. Look at Russia. Organised crime, whilst there, was relatively minor. Capitalism and democracy then take a hold and organised crime flourished.


I've already said it to my Family in the UK, those who can, get the Hell out of there before the ability is taken away from you.

There will be those who scoff at what I say, fine, I honestly hope and pray that I am wrong. But History is there to teach us lessons, to learn from mistakes made in the past. When you see the same mistakes, the same symptoms, then only a fool ignores them. Politicians want power for power's sake, it won't really matter to them how they exercise it, in fact they'd be happier with the death of democracy as it gives the opportunity to wield absolute power with zero accountability.

Democracy is for those who dream of the freedom to better their own lives and those of everyone around them. How can this be dreamt of when the majority of our youth are born into a culture of apathy, ignorance and shame. Dumbed down by the political institutions that are supposed to educate subsequent generations to take us on to brighter futures.

But again, the British people only have themselves to blame. Democracy means that you have the RIGHT to have your voice heard when the system breaks down. Britain drowned its voice in cheap Lager and drug abuse.

The riots are a symptom of the Cancer. They are the 'break out' that, when analysed by the doctor, shows that the Cancer has spread throughout the body and is now terminal. Some treatment now may just see the patient rally for a bit, but the prognosis remains the same, Democracy is dead in the fullness of time.

Don't have to add anymore I think I've covered it. We have to have hope, hope is if any political party is willing to put the effort in then the Armageddon you are predicting will never happen. I believe there are politicians in this country who are willing to do that. This last week has been bleak but we are a hardy Nation. We will fight for our rights. On the 4th night this week home owners, shop owners, ordinary people took to the streets and stood up to the looters. That spirit will always see us through. Always has mate. It's the Dunkirk spirit.

You can't keep harping back to the 'Dunkirk spirit' mate, that holds sway with a nation united. What you are seeing is a nation gradually dividing and it there that Anarchy reigns supreme, ask the Yanks.
And hope is not enough, that is tantamount to a surrender. Too many sit and 'hope' that it will all be OK without taking steps to ensure it is.
I actually considered going into politics when I saw the state England was gradually getting into. Then I saw that an honest man hasn't a prayer in the political World. To get to the point where you have enough sway to make the right kind of difference, you need to 'do favours', you need to graft and, when you finally get to where you need to be, you're so sunk into the mire that you've lost sight of the original goal.
So I decided to do what I could for those I could, my Family. I took them to a progressive society that is vibrant and growing. I may not like everything, or everybody, over here, but I have a voice and exercise it often My kids left the UK as top 5% students, after their first 6 months here they were graded as 'below average.'
They are now top 5% students again and learning things that are reserved for mid to late secondary level. My daughter is 1st year secondary (year whilst my Son is in Primary at age 9. He's doing math that I never saw until 3rd year secondary! And he understands math that I learned in College, degree standard!

No, he's not a prodigy either.

Believe me, nothing would make me happier than to be completely wrong and see the countrey I Love reinvent itself. But I'm a student of History and the lessons it teaches.

My hopes are small.

BazSpur wrote:Not
got time at the moment mate but hopefully will get back to some of your
points later on when all is quiet. It's a hectic life fella. Even
retirement doesn't bring peace lol.

BazSpur wrote:Right have some time to myself now. I enjoyed our first little foray mate. I don't get to discuss politics much anymore. Only with myself or debating with the television or shouting at some prat on Question time lol. Anyway down to business.

I'm going to start from the answer you gave below as I feel most of the earlier debate was going round in circles.

Seriously Baz? Every major City in the Country rioting a blip? The Police stating that it is 'unprecendented' a blip?

You can't honestly believe that surely?

I do believe it ion. The reason is because it wasn't meant to happen mate. It wasn't a political riot like the Poll Tax riots when Thatcher was in power and it wasn't a racially motivated riot as with Broadwater farm and Toxteth. The Broadwater riot was unfortunate too in as much although there were simmerings from the local population if it hadn't been for the death of Cynthia Jarret the likelihood is there wouldn't have been a riot on that scale. I can't say that for certain but that's what I think. Toxteth was also a racially motivated riot. A young black man is stopped on suss laws and then is arrested using over the top heavy handed tactics. Tensions rose and frutrations led to nine days of rioting which caused massive destruction in Toxteth far more than seen in any one area over the last week. That was 20 or so years ago. Personally I don't believe the race issue is anywhere near as bad as it used to be 20 years ago. In Toxteth you had the disgusting scenes of riot police banging their batons on their riot shields while walking along making monkey noises. Absolutely disgraceful in my opinion. Thank god we have moved on from those days. And whether you believe it or not, we have moved on.

Tottenham this last week wasn't about any of those things. Yes a young black man was shot but that wasn't the reason the riots happened, it may have been the catalyst if you know what I mean but that wasn't the reason. When young black youths in Tottenham were asked if that was the reason they said no. They and others made no bones about it. The main reason was because "they could" IF this were racially or politically motivated I would say you may have a point but from rioters own mouths they are saying it wasn't that.It was pure criminality and they saw the police standing off and basically went for it. The Police were at fault for not trying to quell the beginnings of it. When someone is looting a shop you don't stand and watch if you are a policeman but that is exactly what they did and I know they are saying there were mitigating circumstances in the beginning but the second night they were still standing by watching even though they now had numbers. They admit now that was a big mistake.

Going back to what you were saying about democracy breaking down and a dictator like Hitler moving in. I can't agree with that mate. The circumstances for Hitler to move in were dire. The country was sinking under massive repayment debts stemming from the first wold war. The Versaille Treaty, Mass unemployment, Weakness in the political system which he exploited and he was backed by rich business men who feared communism. In the 1920s when Germany was stable Hitler was ridiculed but in the 30s when fear and other factors came into play the time was ripe for him to come to power on the back of his stirring speeches. That isn't happening here, certainly not from where I am standing anyway. However, I am not stupid enough to say never, my favourite saying to goons who say you will never finish above us is "Never is a very long time" Who knows what will happen in the future mate but at the moment I see no sign of a breakdown in law and order to the point that that will happen that will allow that to happen.

There have been far worse riots in the World. The Los Angeles riots in 1992 were far worse. In fact America has a far worse record when it comes to riots but there is no dictator there. Riots have always been with us and probably will be for some time to come, it doesn't make me worry that a dictator is about to step in. Riots in Britain go back centuries. Even Australia has had it's share of riots as you probably know. The 2005 riots in Cronulla were particularly bad (Yes I did Google it lol I like to do my research mate.) A riot involving some 5000 people, shops and houses smashed in some parts of Sydney. There were also riots in 2008 and going further back in Australia's history there are records of riots but it doesn't make me think a dictator is ready to step in to take over Australia or that it's even a breakdown of society or democracy. Nowhere near it ion.

VisionarySound wrote:Is it society to blame ? Economics ? Politics ? Or none of the above ? Perhaps all ? Maybe just some 'chancers' who decided to "front it" and see how far they could go ? Amazingly a lot of the people being charged with looting have jobs, careers and chances to better themselves. 100% discounts on offer me thinks ! ! ! Is this the start of an Anarchic, Facist or Totalaterian state ? Probably not. Just some 'oodies pushing boundaries and seeing how far they can push. Picking up freebies because the time was right to do so. When the Police mistreated privileged, middle class, university kids by using such heinous things as 'kettling' the middle class, privleged, university educated press protested. Now the lower class, secondary educated, under-privleged class have had a go the police are criticised for not doing what they were criticised for earlier his year. This isn't the start of a new lawless Britain leading into a V For Vendetta type controlled state, just the kids of kids breaking out and testing waters. Cut-backs equal opportuinities for these people . . . . .

ionman34 wrote:Wrong mate, they did cope albeit it took them a while. They have held their hands up Police and Politicians they ackknowledge the mistakes made and they will be rectified. All is quiet on the streets of London and the other Cities now.

LOL, be serious mate. They did not cope. For three days the riots carried on with the sole purpose of looting. 1700 Police on the streets was not enough to prevent mass robbery and destruction in London. 10,000 coppers were unable to stem the violence across the country.

This has never happened before in the UK. So the streets are quiet now, there's only so much any one person can loot.

I said they did cope but it took them a while.
Initially no, I agree they didn't cope at all in fact as I posted
elsewhere they stood back and f*cking watched. Ok they were out numbered
initially but that was total incompetence on the part of the Police and
government. Cameron was sunning himself and having pictures taken with
some model or somrthing Boris was off on his jolley's as was Osbourne.
What chance did we stand. Once they got back and gave the orders for
more Police to be put in London and authorised "More robust tactics" it
was bye bye rioters as I always knew it would be. The rioters were never
going to win. We all knew that, how could they. They could have carried
on but the government and the police would have upped the ante. We've
seen it all before mate it's nothing new. It's a way of youths letting
off steam. Remember the Mods and Rockers? I do.That was absolute Mayhem
and went on far longer than this rioting and it was happening all over
the country at the weekends. There were thousands fighting. Testosterone
was so strong you could smell it. look on youtube mate there are loads
of clips on there. Go back further Teddy Boys? You've probably heard of
them but I remember them. They fought with other gangs using bicycle
chains and razors. They weren't off a bit of looting either. Granted not
to the same degree as what has just happened but it's nothing new.
Skinheads, Football Hooliganism, Punks nothing new mate. It's always
been there. Only so much one person can loot? It wasn't that mate. it
was because the Police got control that's the only reason it stopped. If
they could they would still be at it. We have plenty of other Towns and
Cities mate.


Corrupt and decadent societies are not the sole possession of this generation mate, they have been around for centuries, The Greeks, the Romans, The victorians, Edwardians etc,etc, it passes and a new generation is born. This society is no more decadent as some that have gone before. We no longer have kids working in mines, or sweeping chimney's Work houses are gone. Education for all. There is now a minimum wage in place. The list goes on. No mate far from decadent it is more decent now than ever before. Of course there is corruption but there always has been. I don't think corruption is any worse than before. Corruption itself won't bring down society.

[/color][/b][/i] Well, I can't comment on that as I am not up on my Greek and Roman periods but what I will say is different times mate and they bear no resemblence to the times of today. From what I know of the Roman empire they couldn't sustain the colonization of other countries and were under attack themselves. It wasn't decadence that brought them down it was overstretching themselves until they finally came under attack and Rome fell.

The Greeks and the Romans prove my point. Corruption and decadence led to the downfall of each of these democratic societies. They weakened as a result of their decadence and were invaded as a result. The Victorian and Edwardian societies were far from decadent, they were extremely progressive, albeit not a democracy in the purest sense. Democracy was in its infancy, in the UK, then and still had work to do. But decadent? Not a chance. The Industrial Revolution, the fight for Womens votes, the burgeoning implementation of an education system that encompassed ALL rather than the priveleged few.

Progressive, flourishing, healthy society. The media were entirely neutral, for the most part, and criticised any political entity based on their impact for the country rather than because they supported the opposition. Our Law was the envy of the World, it was no mistake that justice was depicted as blind at the Old Bailey.

Well the Romans were beaten by their own invasions of other countries. They basically overstretched themselves and were eventuall taken by Germanic armies. Nothing to do with decadence or the such like. I'm not saying decadence wasn't rife in Rome I'm sure it was but it wasn't that which caused Rome to fall. As for Greece they were gobbled up by Rome which effectively ended there civilisation, once again it was nothing to do with decadence.




Turn out for 2010 election was as follows mate. That was for UK, Eng, Scot, Wales, NI. Bit more than 40% fella. some previous elections the turnout was more. Up to 78 percent in some elections.
[/color]

2010

65.1

65.5

64.7

63.8

57.6

Ignore the 60% Baz, that was a mistake. My original declaration was meant to be that 40% hadn't bothered to vote, I was out by about 5% by your figures above. 40% is a huge proportion of the population, nearly half. If we use your figures above then that is scaled down to just over a third. Population of 60 million, one third 'can't be arsed' to vote, 20 million people.

That is the entire population of Australia Baz!

I will agree there is apathy when it comes to voting but unless a law is going to be brought in to make people vote, nothing will change. It's Ok to sit in Aussie and pass judgement on the amount of people who don't vote here fella but ask yourself this. How many would voluntarily vote in Australia if it wasn't law? We'll never know will we?


Point proven I believe, apathy and decadence.


Would it interest you to know that 0 level passes and A level passes increase year on year. Colleges and Universities are oversubscribed mate to the point where they only take the best now. My partners Daughter got into Universitiy because she was very well qualified. She is taking a diploma for Animal science which is a very popular course because of the openings if you qualify. No dumbing down here. There was some speculation that because of the high rate of passes the exams must be easier now and that came from the press. turns out it's not true. It is actually harder now. Shows how our education is up there with the best.

Now we're getting into my territory. I checked up on the OECD's International comparisons in education and some of these stats will really shock you. I'll stick with the higher tertiary education stats for now.

In 2005 we were ranked 17th of the 30 OECD rated countries in the World. The countries ranked ahead of us including, from Europe alone, Ireland, Spain, Norway, France, Finland, Sweden and Luxembourg!
In 2007, Britain had the joint lowest expenditure, from Public sources (Tax etc) in the World! Along with Italy at 0.6% of GDP. Since then, the UK has MASSIVELY reduced it's expenditure making it rock bottom of the pile.
Interestingly, the highest investors in education are USA, Canada, Korea and Chile, with Canada and Korea occupying 1st and 3rd place in the OECD World rankings.

Now more people in the UK are passing exams, yet less money is invested in the education and the UK is slipping further and further down the rankings.

But you don't think it's dumbing down?

I do.

Nope, because more people are passing exams mate. You can't ignore the eveidence. If less were passing I'd say you have a point.


I didn't say organised crime ion, we're not talking Mafia here. I am talking about organised gangs that have control of their estate and plague the residents and keep other gangs out. There sole aim in life seems to be having wars with other estates or rather post codes. Ok they may deal a little crack and heroin etc but that is not what they live for. They live for the gang which is their family. Their other aim is to out do other gangs by getting into their manor and being naughty. When the riots were going these gangs all had a truce and came together. With the initiatives Labour put into these estates Street crime fell and the amount of gangs was also falling with members opting out.
[/b][/i][/color]

My apologies Baz, I misread what you'd originally posted.

It's difficult for me to comment on the gang mentality as I've never been associated with one. However, one comment I will make is that gang association is also a part of an anarchic society. 'Warlordism' is another word for it where a cohesive society breaks down into smaller and smaller 'sub-societies' amd anarchy reigns. Japan, in the middle ages, was exactly this way with many Warlords warring with each other across the country, exercising their own laws, carrying out their own plots and ignoring the Emperor at the time. that Anarchy was brought to a stop by absolutism. A Shogun appointed and Imperialism forced on anyone and everyone.

A Dictatorship, step three in the three step process.

Like I've said previously, History has all the lessons there for those with the eyes to see. It doesn't have to be our own History.

Well all that may be true ion but Japan never had a democracy in those days. Always bound to fail sooner or later. Russia, China, have had to change to fit in with the modern World. I won't worry fella I am confident our democracy will carry on. What was it Bob Dylan sang. The times they are a changing. Certainly are mate and for the better when you look back.

BazSpur wrote:

ionman34 wrote:Wrong mate, they did cope albeit it took them a while. They have held their hands up Police and Politicians they ackknowledge the mistakes made and they will be rectified. All is quiet on the streets of London and the other Cities now.

LOL, be serious mate. They did not cope. For three days the riots carried on with the sole purpose of looting. 1700 Police on the streets was not enough to prevent mass robbery and destruction in London. 10,000 coppers were unable to stem the violence across the country.

This has never happened before in the UK. So the streets are quiet now, there's only so much any one person can loot.

I said they did cope but it took them a while.
Initially no, I agree they didn't cope at all in fact as I posted
elsewhere they stood back and f*cking watched. Ok they were out numbered
initially but that was total incompetence on the part of the Police and
government. Cameron was sunning himself and having pictures taken with
some model or somrthing Boris was off on his jolley's as was Osbourne.
What chance did we stand. Once they got back and gave the orders for
more Police to be put in London and authorised "More robust tactics" it
was bye bye rioters as I always knew it would be. The rioters were never
going to win. We all knew that, how could they. They could have carried
on but the government and the police would have upped the ante. We've
seen it all before mate it's nothing new. It's a way of youths letting
off steam. Remember the Mods and Rockers? I do.That was absolute Mayhem
and went on far longer than this rioting and it was happening all over
the country at the weekends. There were thousands fighting. Testosterone
was so strong you could smell it. look on youtube mate there are loads
of clips on there. Go back further Teddy Boys? You've probably heard of
them but I remember them. They fought with other gangs using bicycle
chains and razors. They weren't off a bit of looting either. Granted not
to the same degree as what has just happened but it's nothing new.
Skinheads, Football Hooliganism, Punks nothing new mate. It's always
been there. Only so much one person can loot? It wasn't that mate. it
was because the Police got control that's the only reason it stopped. If
they could they would still be at it. We have plenty of other Towns and
Cities mate.

Thoroughly different scenarios, and whilst those gangs were fighting each other they weren't also breaking into peoples houses in order to rob them either.

We can bat this one around forever though Baz. You seem to believe the Police got everything under control and, after a fashion, they did.

But not before they revealed to the World just how inept they really are, or should I say the laws that govern their actions.

As said previously, only time will tell, but these youngsters can now smell blood. For 3 days they plundered unfettered, knowing full well that the Police were hindered by the very laws they are paid to enforce. What then happens when another bout of looting occurs, then another? Maintain the laws? Or make new ones that restrict basic Human rights or allow more strenuous action from the Police? Introduction of curfew? Arrests for loitering?

Time will tell.


Corrupt and decadent societies are not the sole possession of this generation mate, they have been around for centuries, The Greeks, the Romans, The victorians, Edwardians etc,etc, it passes and a new generation is born. This society is no more decadent as some that have gone before. We no longer have kids working in mines, or sweeping chimney's Work houses are gone. Education for all. There is now a minimum wage in place. The list goes on. No mate far from decadent it is more decent now than ever before. Of course there is corruption but there always has been. I don't think corruption is any worse than before. Corruption itself won't bring down society.

[/color][/b][/i] Well, I can't comment on that as I am not up on my Greek and Roman periods but what I will say is different times mate and they bear no resemblence to the times of today.

Wrong, they bear testament to what happens when Empires decay and decadence within the population is rife. The times may be different but the process remains exactly the same. Ignore the lessons of the past at your peril.


From what I know of the Roman empire they couldn't sustain the colonization of other countries and were under attack themselves. It wasn't decadence that brought them down it was overstretching themselves until they finally came under attack and Rome fell.

No it wasn't, it was decadence. Politicians became more interested in their own power bases than in what was best for the nation. So much so that the bravest and best were assassinated if they presented a political danger. The Roman Army was disbanded mostly, as it was believed it was too much of a drain on resources, and mercenary armies employed to guard the borders of Rome. These armies were employed from the very peoples that had sacked Rome in the first place, the Germanic Visigoths. The Visigoths were allowed to settle within the borders of Rome and, eventually, took over the country.
Roman decadence led to them abandoning all of the principles that made them great in the first place.

Blatant similarities with the way the UK has gone over the past 50 years.

The Greeks and the Romans prove my point. Corruption and decadence led to the downfall of each of these democratic societies. They weakened as a result of their decadence and were invaded as a result. The Victorian and Edwardian societies were far from decadent, they were extremely progressive, albeit not a democracy in the purest sense. Democracy was in its infancy, in the UK, then and still had work to do. But decadent? Not a chance. The Industrial Revolution, the fight for Womens votes, the burgeoning implementation of an education system that encompassed ALL rather than the priveleged few.

Progressive, flourishing, healthy society. The media were entirely neutral, for the most part, and criticised any political entity based on their impact for the country rather than because they supported the opposition. Our Law was the envy of the World, it was no mistake that justice was depicted as blind at the Old Bailey.

Well the Romans were beaten by their own invasions of other countries. They basically overstretched themselves and were eventuall taken by Germanic armies. Nothing to do with decadence or the such like. I'm not saying decadence wasn't rife in Rome I'm sure it was but it wasn't that which caused Rome to fall.

See above.


As for Greece they were gobbled up by Rome which effectively ended there civilisation, once again it was nothing to do with decadence.

Not really mate. To be honest, the Greeks were a bad example to cite. Greec itself was pretty much in an anarchic state because the Persians wanted it so. They realised that a united Greece was a danger to their own Empire, which Alexander finally proved.

Democracy was actually born in Greece, or Athens to be more precise, but Greece itself was constantly at war until Philip, followed by his son Alexander, finally united it. That unity lasted only as long as Alexander lived.




Turn out for 2010 election was as follows mate. That was for UK, Eng, Scot, Wales, NI. Bit more than 40% fella. some previous elections the turnout was more. Up to 78 percent in some elections.
[/color]

2010

65.1

65.5

64.7

63.8

57.6

Ignore the 60% Baz, that was a mistake. My original declaration was meant to be that 40% hadn't bothered to vote, I was out by about 5% by your figures above. 40% is a huge proportion of the population, nearly half. If we use your figures above then that is scaled down to just over a third. Population of 60 million, one third 'can't be arsed' to vote, 20 million people.

That is the entire population of Australia Baz!

I will agree there is apathy when it comes to voting but unless a law is going to be brought in to make people vote, nothing will change. It's Ok to sit in Aussie and pass judgement on the amount of people who don't vote here fella but ask yourself this. How many would voluntarily vote in Australia if it wasn't law? We'll never know will we?


Why do you have to put it that I'm passing judgement? Christ almighty, I've posted figures to back up an assertion is all, the assertion that apathy has set in and more than a third of the population CAN'T BE BOTHERED to vote. That's not a judgement, that's an observation.

And forget Australia, or any other country for that matter. The question should be more like 'how many would voluntarily vote in a progressive, flourishing Democratic society.'

A damn sight more that two thirds I'd wager my life on that. In a progressive Democracy the people WANT to have a say in how their lives are to be impacted, they care about how their country performs and is perceived on a World stage.

They don't have to be forced to think that way.



Point proven I believe, apathy and decadence.


Would it interest you to know that 0 level passes and A level passes increase year on year. Colleges and Universities are oversubscribed mate to the point where they only take the best now. My partners Daughter got into Universitiy because she was very well qualified. She is taking a diploma for Animal science which is a very popular course because of the openings if you qualify. No dumbing down here. There was some speculation that because of the high rate of passes the exams must be easier now and that came from the press. turns out it's not true. It is actually harder now. Shows how our education is up there with the best.

Now we're getting into my territory. I checked up on the OECD's International comparisons in education and some of these stats will really shock you. I'll stick with the higher tertiary education stats for now.

In 2005 we were ranked 17th of the 30 OECD rated countries in the World. The countries ranked ahead of us including, from Europe alone, Ireland, Spain, Norway, France, Finland, Sweden and Luxembourg!
In 2007, Britain had the joint lowest expenditure, from Public sources (Tax etc) in the World! Along with Italy at 0.6% of GDP. Since then, the UK has MASSIVELY reduced it's expenditure making it rock bottom of the pile.
Interestingly, the highest investors in education are USA, Canada, Korea and Chile, with Canada and Korea occupying 1st and 3rd place in the OECD World rankings.

Now more people in the UK are passing exams, yet less money is invested in the education and the UK is slipping further and further down the rankings.

But you don't think it's dumbing down?

I do.

Nope, because more people are passing exams mate. You can't ignore the eveidence. If less were passing I'd say you have a point.


Huh?

More people are passing exams because they've been dumbed down Baz. Made easier to mask the fact that the UK has been constantly reducing the funding into the State education system.

You have cited the evidence that the Govt wants you to see and believe. The OECD provides the damning statistics that show the UK is progressively getting a lesser education than its peer countries.

I didn't say organised crime ion, we're not talking Mafia here. I am talking about organised gangs that have control of their estate and plague the residents and keep other gangs out. There sole aim in life seems to be having wars with other estates or rather post codes. Ok they may deal a little crack and heroin etc but that is not what they live for. They live for the gang which is their family. Their other aim is to out do other gangs by getting into their manor and being naughty. When the riots were going these gangs all had a truce and came together. With the initiatives Labour put into these estates Street crime fell and the amount of gangs was also falling with members opting out.
[/b][/i][/color]

My apologies Baz, I misread what you'd originally posted.

It's difficult for me to comment on the gang mentality as I've never been associated with one. However, one comment I will make is that gang association is also a part of an anarchic society. 'Warlordism' is another word for it where a cohesive society breaks down into smaller and smaller 'sub-societies' amd anarchy reigns. Japan, in the middle ages, was exactly this way with many Warlords warring with each other across the country, exercising their own laws, carrying out their own plots and ignoring the Emperor at the time. that Anarchy was brought to a stop by absolutism. A Shogun appointed and Imperialism forced on anyone and everyone.

A Dictatorship, step three in the three step process.

Like I've said previously, History has all the lessons there for those with the eyes to see. It doesn't have to be our own History.

Well all that may be true ion but Japan never had a democracy in those days. Always bound to fail sooner or later. Russia, China, have had to change to fit in with the modern World. I won't worry fella I am confident our democracy will carry on. What was it Bob Dylan sang. The times they are a changing. Certainly are mate and for the better when you look back.