WALNUT

[quote="burger777"]a first team squad is a first team squad, if anyone else can find a name for it please let me know, as for the current arsenal team we are missing english talent, this is down to our astute manager picking up quality international talent for next to nothing, fabregas being the example at 0.5 million, glichy,fabregas,song,denilson are always around the first team squad, cole toure,flamini were and bentner,wilshire,djourou and walcot will be. the question was how many kids make the first team and i am just giving you the answers.

What is this 'First team squad' you keep banging on about Burger? There is a First team, as previously explained, and there is the squad consisting of reserves that are called on in the event of injury and suspension and/or when certain 'First team' players are rested for games of 'lesser importance'.

First team, Reserves. That has always been the definition that seperates your main players from those called on when necessity demands it. They are held in 'Reserve' for use when necessary.

Changing the terminology doesn't change the facts.

burger777 wrote:lol, back to english players now.aw did develop english players dave but most of them didn make the grade at arsenal at that time, it happens in football that, so the like of upson,bentley,pennant,sidwell,harper,stack,hoyte,bothroyd,thomas were moved on for theres and our benefit. so thats 9 of the top of my head that didn quite make it for various reasons. ALL ENGLISH. now we all could go out and buy english players, bentley,jenas,woodgate,crouch,defoe,huddlestone,dawson and then make out we are totally english, we look after our own, but whats the point if it aint good enough.

Well youve been touting Willshire for a couple of seasons now and still no regular first team football, i remember pre season last year you was saying what a big year it could be for him and yet he went on loan to that great footballing side that is Bolton!!

Will AW ever give, even apparently the ones that could make the grade, a decent chance in the first eleven?

Btw, Crouch was a product of our youth system!!

your assuming again dave, let time be the decider on that one, going to bolton btw is a great thing for wilshire to have done, not sure of your point there.

burger777 wrote:your assuming again dave, let time be the decider on that one, going to bolton btw is a great thing for wilshire to have done, not sure of your point there.

What im saying is that you thought he was ready and by going to a team that mainly plays long ball to Kevin Davies is more likely to stunt his progression, is that the sign of an astute manager or one that couldnt give a toss about the English youngsters at the club.

sending your fringe/young players out on loan is agood thing dave, especially if you can keep them in the prem, but you are right i was shouting the odds a little about jack, and there are some internal issues with him, hes a stroppy,cocky little 18 year old whoes on 25k a week, sending him to bolton and getting him out of london was done for alot of reasons, reports say he has done ok up there, ability wise he has loads of potential, but its up to him whether he can do the hard work.

burger777 wrote:sending your fringe/young players out on loan is agood thing dave, especially if you can keep them in the prem, but you are right i was shouting the odds a little about jack, and there are some internal issues with him, hes a stroppy,cocky little 18 year old whoes on 25k a week, sending him to bolton and getting him out of london was done for alot of reasons, reports say he has done ok up there, ability wise he has loads of potential, but its up to him whether he can do the hard work.

So, do you think AW doesnt have the bottle to handle the stroppy,cocky English kids and prefers the do as your told foreigners that dont give him trouble?

i dont think thats the reason, simple fact is dave around the 2003/ to 2006 period AW scouted europe and took advantage of some bargains, so at this period we had an influx of foreign kids coming thru our youth system,reserves, now was this at the xpense of local talent coming thru, this could be argued. but i could name u 15 english kids from that era that are playing proffesional football today, ok not at the bright light levels, but all erning a good living, so were this kids abandon by arsenal, or are they the ones that wernt quite good enough, many a foriegn lad gets sent packing as well. arsenal just jumped the gun and started scouting europe with manutd 3 years before most teams even thut of it.

burger777 wrote:i dont think thats the reason, simple fact is dave around the 2003/ to 2006 period AW scouted europe and took advantage of some bargains, so at this period we had an influx of foreign kids coming thru our youth system,reserves, now was this at the xpense of local talent coming thru, this could be argued. but i could name u 15 english kids from that era that are playing proffesional football today, ok not at the bright light levels, but all erning a good living, so were this kids abandon by arsenal, or are they the ones that wernt quite good enough, many a foriegn lad gets sent packing as well. arsenal just jumped the gun and started scouting europe with manutd 3 years before most teams even thut of it.

Unfortunately for you (mainly the French) got wise to it and on the whole AW wont pay the money they want now, so why not persevere with the English kids and like Harry has done to some of ours, cajole them into making them the players they should be.

i think we will, but because now we have inherited 2003/6 era into our first team squad, we are missing english players, because they wernt good enough at that time, nothing to do with any policies, or any abandonment going on. i could talk all day about the development sides of things dave, whether its english, foriegn, arsenal whatever the team, it something i am quite passionate about, 1 of the reasons why is there aint no more than 2 clubs (man city middlesboro) in the country that do more for local talent,english talent,foreign talent,arsenal talent and international talent than arsenal, add to that the superb facilities,coaching,funding and guidance we offer, you can understand why sometimes i get a bit smug when constantly i see people shouting something they have no or very little knowledge about.

You seem to be saying stick with what you’ve got till they run out and go buy some new ones? Seems very south london in the approach…?

Maybe thats why the plumstead pikeys go down this route eh Mark . . . . ..

[quote="Mark2spark"]I’ll agree with ion’s first post, it’s pretty much what I was saying all along.



“The point is that Arsenal are doing more than their fair share of developing and naturing young British/English talent.”



The point wasn’t claimed that we have twenty odd first team English players.

So, whilst agreeing with the jist of ion’s post, I’m not sure what the point of it is.


It was really refuting Burgers claim that all of these youngsters are part of the first team or 'first team squad' as Burger put it.

I think you're stretching the bounds of credibility by claiming that they are all part of the first team when they only ever make cameo appearances every now and then.

I have to say that there are similarities between our two teams in the way we bring on our younger players and what we do with them in the fullness of time. The only real difference is that, whilst you nurture yours in the reserve side, we farm ours out on loan, as we've disbanded the reserves. I'm not sure whether this is a better option and only the fullness of time will tell, but we too have a policy of selling on those who don't quite make the grade. Funnily enough, there have been goons who have pulled us up on this, Nic being at the forefront.

The main difference between us is that we have managed to persevere with the youth we obtained and turned quite a few into top quality players, some even knocking on the door of World class too, Lennon being the prime example with the likes of Dawson and The Hud moving in that direction.

Player trading is an integral part of any successful team and is a great money spinner if done correctly with the cream kept.

One question I would ask you guys though, you've had the likes of Bentley and Jeffers brought through in your time, with players like Crystal Ken crocked more often than not, do you not think that a player like Jeffers would have blossomed with the style of Football you play?

I do agree ion, we have retained and developed these young talents, and great spotting by our talent scouts, but the question then hit me!! how many of our own talent eg the young school boys and youth team members that come through our ranks are making it into our first team squad or fringes, or are we happy to take other teams talent and and bring them on, if so, is this a risky policy, should we put more effort in our young players, or can anyone name a player that has come through the Spurs system from scratch??

Maybe Jamie O' Hara??? or maybe Daryl Gibson - I know Gibson was a Spurs schoolboy!!!

ledley king tress, someones finally getting my point and ion if song,denilson,fabregas,bentner,glichy,walcot,aluminia aint considered fiist team what are they then,

As this is a long post I might have missed the point you are claiming Burger!!!!! so please enlighten me!!!!!! Walnut may (i am not sure) be an assnil schoolboy ( some say still is, including uncle Sol) and came through their ranks did Bentover come through the ranks too!! who else!!

I should let you answer to see how truthful you would have been but !!!!!!!!!!
It seems to me that Walnut was a Southampton schoolboy. so not and Assnil talent from scratch:

And bentover (for Sol) seems to have been a Copenhagen schoolboy so not an Assnil talent either so please inform me who have Assnil got in their ranks from scratch???

But I am sure you would have been honest and not claimed these boys as Assnil's home grown talent!!! hey Burger!!!

Aaron Ramsey Cardiff Schoolboy or youth Not Assnil

Kieran Gibbs Wimbledon Schoolboy Not Assnil !!!!!!

So Jack Wilshere it seems to me at present is the only talent you have from scratch who is in the first team or real fringes so really not much better than us Burger unless you can prove you have other players there you are claiming !!!!!!!

lol yes u have missed the point tress, i have been quite open about AW and his scouting in europe for young talent, who said they were arsenal schoolboys, but they came to us at 14/15/16 so we take credit for there development, or was glichy,fabregas,song the finished articles when they came to us, it seems u have spent alot of time googling arsenal players trying to trip me up lol, next time just ask.

Just making sure!!!!! you are very good at smoke and mirrors!!!!! so I was taking no chances and letting you know, I know where they came from, and no I found the info in a very short time!!!!

[quote="burger777"]ledley king tress, someones finally getting my point and ion if song,denilson,fabregas,bentner,glichy,walcot,aluminia aint considered fiist team what are they then

Not sure of your point here Burger. Apart from Wingnut & Denilson, who sort of hover in and out of the first team, you have mentioned first team regulars.

You have maintained that all the English/British youngsters you have are first team regulars, claiming that being part of the squad makes you a first team regular. I maintain that this isn't so and that only regular appearances in the starting 11/14 gives the right to be labelled as part of the 'first team'.

Have a think about it mate and I'm sure you'll agree.

[quote="tressman1"]I do agree ion, we have retained and developed these young talents, and great spotting by our talent scouts, but the question then hit me!! how many of our own talent eg the young school boys and youth team members that come through our ranks are making it into our first team squad or fringes, or are we happy to take other teams talent and and bring them on, if so, is this a risky policy, should we put more effort in our young players, or can anyone name a player that has come through the Spurs system from scratch??

We don't have many Tress and that has been extreme shortsightedness on the clubs part. However, I believe this is now being addressed.

Better late than never I suppose.

The nice thing though is that the club seem to be addressing all aspects of the further development of the club, as a whole, in the correct manner. The training facilities put in place will enable us to bring us more into line with the likes of Boro, Utd and, yes, even the goons. We're putting in place a framework that will enable us to maintain continuity in our drive for regular challenge for the title. It will also be a great money spinner in our player trading.

The club have been in the doldrums for many years now but appear to have a management framework that has identified the shortcomings and is addressing them superbly. It's more than just the players on the pitch, it's the entire framework that has me believing that we will become a major force in Europe once more. This is what inspires my confidence more than anything else and is the reason why I have been a staunch supporter of Danny Levy for so long.

obviously are definitions of what first team squad is is different, but no team wins anything just using 11/14 players a season, so still shaking my head at what we call the other 10 or 12 that get used by all teams, arsenal used over 25 players this season and in my eyes i consider them all first team squad members. obviously some are closer to the first team than others but they are all in that bracket imo, u say denilson and walcot only get bit part action, so what do u call these people then, the nearly men, only when needed guys, ill ring u dont ring me, no mate there job is playing football for arsenal and they are considered apart of the first team squad, well they are by me and every arsenal supporter i know. anyway time to move on i suggest.